Having Faced The Music, Now The Trojans Wait

No one really knows what’s going through the Infractions Committee’s collective minds now as they discuss and deliberate on these past three days.

My impression from reading this article a few others is this will not be "a slap on the wrist"-scenario and that serious penalties will be levied against USC.

Mike Garrett is probably the one person at USC that has antagonized the NCAA Committee over the past several months and the preceeding 5 years since the Bush allegations surfaced.

His attitude and smug demeanor will likely cause any Infractions member who may have been considering a modest punishment to swing over to a more severe one.

I trust Pete Carroll’s common sense abilities in hastily moving on to Seattle more than I do Kiffen’s and Garrett’s opinions about this case and both of whom have blindly convinced themselves (and apparently
 a lot of new recruits) that USC is above and beyond punishment.
 
There has been way too much time, money and scutiny focused on the NCAA to just do a gloss-over of this whole affair involving both USC football and basketball players and coaches.

All 11 members of the Infraction committee probably feel as though their integrity and "street-sense" is on the line here. These people take their roles very seriously and would look foolish if they were gullible enough to believe USC’s case over the tons of evidence that was wheeled into the meeting room

Garrett, Kiffen, Carroll have been able to "hustle" high school recruits with their slick lines about "there’s nothing wrong here with the NCAA"—-while a group of senior level NCAA committee people are not as gullible
 having examined three days worth of evidence and testimony.

There is even still more testimony coming on March 6th from the Lake case yet to come.

This looks as serious as a "heart-attack" for USC.

"come and gone with little in the way of public payoff."

No surprise. USC prefers those private, secret payoffs.

I’m pretty sure it was a 96 Impala, Brian.  And, I’m still amazed how many folks are stuck on the car’s that Bush and Joe Mac drove. This is SoCal. Half of the high school students have better rides than both of those guys.

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In the Legal vernacular, it is called strict liability. It’slike being stopped for speeding and stating that you didn’t know the speedlimit was 35 mph. You are REQUIRED to know the speed limit if you are operatinga vehicle.

NCAA by-law 12.3.1.2 states that an athlete shall be deemedineligible if he or she accepts benefits from agents or marketingrepresentatives. The rule further states that student-athletes, their family orfriends cannot receive benefits or loans from agents. Additionally, NCAA by-law12.1.2.1.6 states that athletes cannot receive preferential treatment, benefitsor services because of the individual’s athletics reputation or skill orpay-back potential as a professional athlete, unless such treatment, benefitsor services are specifically permitted under NCAA legislation.

Herein lies USC’s problem. The institution is required toprovide Competent Oversight. USC has a Compliance Department and it is theirsole responsibility to make sure that these infractions, do not happen. Now,Reggie Bush was not your "normal" athlete, he was the most-visibleathlete on campus during his career.

USC, actually cleared Bush to work as an intern for sportsmarketing agent Mike Ornstein in the summer of 2005, before Bush’s finalseason. You do remember Mike Ornstein, don’t you. Mike Ornstein is Bush’ssports agent who landed about $50 million in endorsement deals before the 2005Heisman Trophy winner even signed his rookie contract with the New OrleansSaints. Ornstein was a guest on the USC sideline during games on at least two occasions.Should have known… yeah probably!

Photos of Lloyd Lake and former New Era business partner MichaelMichaels and USC football coach Pete Carroll posing together in the locker roomafter a game; prove that USC not only knew of their relationship but actuallyfacilitated it. Michaels already has reached a settlement with Bush. Yahoo!Sports reported that Michaels received $300,000 to settle the case and agree toa confidentiality clause. Pretty good "PayDay" for not beinginvolved.

There were many opportunities for the Compliance Department tobe Competent… like when Reggie got a new (used) car which even appeared in"DUB" magazine, well here is a web-site that has a few of thedocuments that may be of interest to you:

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/news?slug=ys-bushdocuments011008&p…

Any University in the Country, that wanted to circumvent theserequirements, could funnel money to a players parents and claim that theydidn’t know. Do you, seriously, think that the NCAA can allow this to happen?

Let me give you a hint… Your Basketball program has alreadybitten the bullet. Do you really think Pete Carroll left to Coach the SeaHawksbecause it was the "Best" offer he had gotten from the NFL? He hadoffers almost every year. He left because he won’t have to answer anyquestions, now that he is not affiliated with USC any longer.

"Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding,disbelief or ignorance."

Fight On!!

LOL, look at all the lawyers on the board…hahaha  What are you going to do with yourselves in 10 weeks when their is no more NCAA probe to hang on to?

In the mean time, it’s another beautiful 70 degree day in sunny SoCal.  Spring ball is around the corner.  Baxter and Prater are looking beautiful on campus….ah it’s great to be a Trojan!

"And, I’m still amazed how many folks are stuck on the car’s that Bush and Joe Mac drove. This is SoCal. Half of the high school students have better rides than both of those guys."

yeah, those HS kids that have better rides also have parents who are loaded and can afford that stuff. the high school students who grow up poor don’t have those rides.

also, Vol85, how are you at all one to criticize others for violations?

Excellent article. Props to Brian Cook for being objective and providing some great analysis.

Cook is right – this all comes down to how stringent the NCAA is going to be about the burden of proof. This is all circumstantial evidence, but you can draw some ****ing inferences from it.

This is why I think USC made a huge mistake in hiring Kiffin, a chronic violater of the NCAA rules. At a time when the Trojans need some love and understanding from the NCAA, they pretty flipped the bird at them by hiring "Lane Violation".

But that is all just speculation in my part – we will know for sure soon enough.

I drove a sweet cherried out 73’ Ford Bronco in High School….take that to the beach and smoke it!!!

why wouldn’t you have picked a cool vehicle?

Gabe, you are very blessed to come from an affluent family and have parents that could provide you with a "sweet cherried out" ride.
 
I don’t think the players involved were as fortunate. And Sneaky Pete and the members of his staff knew, or should have known, this.

That is the whole point.

Gabe—

You and I tend to agree on a lot of things, but your cavalier defense of USC is going to make you look foolish on this one.  Hell, I don’t defend my school’s current ‘practice scandal’ an 1/8 as vigorous as you defend USC’s current troubles, and the trojan hand is 100 more times the shade of red.  (Granted, there isn’t a piece on my school every day because only the Detroit News thought the ‘scandal’ was sensational, but still.)

The bottom line is your school is going to get pinched here.  You will take a Miami beating, but have the infrastructure to rebound in 4-5 years.  Is Kiffin the man to do it?  I don’t know about that.  I don’t like him, and think he may need heavy medication to stay sane, but the world has loathed or just plain-old not get plenty of really effective college coaches in the past. 

umich

I don’t even see a Miami type of beating on this one, more like a Alabama type of beating, the one they got over Albert Means. 2 years top at that. By then Kiffen will have his regiment and players in place making runs at the PAC 10 and National Titles.

You guys are getting ahead of yourselves.  USC will be fine.  If the NCAA want’s to try and make an example of USC they better have some pretty good evidence, because our lawyers are ready to pounce.  What you think schools can’t sue the NCAA?  Sure they can.

The NCAA is crossing every T and dotting every I, because they know any attempt to go extreme will put NCAA in court and we have the funding to keep it there a long…long….long….time. 

Many in the nation are just so upset with USC.  It really is amazing.  I find it funny nobody wants to talk about Florida’s 28 arrests, or Oregon latest string….no those guys get a pass….but USC?  Throw the book at them!

"The most ****ing claim against USC is [Lloyd] Lake’s allegation in [Don] Yaeger’s book that he was in the room with Bush’s stepfather as he discussed the sketchy housing arrangement with Carroll over the phone."….

…"So far, there is no firm evidence in any published reports to date that anyone at USC had direct knowledge of improper benefits to any football player, which probably means the NCAA doesn’t have it, either". – Doctor Saturday

Well there it is folks… especially the second part which says it all… at least according to college football blogger "Doctor Saturday" It seems the centerpiece of this whole thing is the same Lloyd "Live from Pelican Bay"Lake who when interviewed on Sixty Minutes could offer nothing but his own verbal allegation that "Bush did it." This and the supporting cast of liars now blocks the Sun.  I’m amazed at this point, that anyone would dare to definitively say or opine what exactly happened in the Bush, Lake, et al affair. Hopefully the NCAA now has all of the needed documentation (grunts included) plus supplemental testimony to make a credible decision. If there is PROVEN and DOCUMENTED wrong doing then punishment is warranted. But if it comes down to taking the word of jailbirds, shyster lawyers, and/or jilted wannabe sports agents over law abiding University coaches, athletes, and administrators…  then justice, particularly the kind administered by the NCAA, may indeed be blind and in dire need of a Doctor.

Hey Hyacenth House:

Great diatribe but the fundamental point you’ve overlooked is that anything concerning a possible violation of NCAA rules by it member organizations has absolutely nothing to do with "The Law"

NOTHING!

trojanwar, you and SailorGabe are embarrassing all USC graduates on this thread. What I gave you was the legal definition of how to interpret a NCAA by-law, you moron.  I overlooked nothing; you just can’t understand what I write… totally over your head.  If you go back and read my post to that idiot George_Tirebiter, it was I that told him that the NCAA is not a legal entity.  That’s why this case has taken as long as it has, because the NCAA lacks subpoena power or they could have had Reggie & Pete testify.  Instead, your institution, being a private school, has received greater immunity (than would a state school) and has done everything in their power to make this investigation by the NCAA as difficult as possible.  Reggie moved on to the NFL, so did Joe McKnight, and so did Pete so that the NCAA would have no recourse against them… but your school is still under the jurisdiction of NCAA by-laws and can’t run away.As I have told Tirebiter and others… just wait and see what happens.  But you trojan fans just love to make yourselves, look stupid.  CFB just wants to see the playing field level, we shall see soon enough how the NCAA rules on your case. 

There are more hustlers on the campus of USC than the neighborhood that surrounds it . . .

Receipts, photos, corroborated evidence — nope, all that means nothing, I suppose.

Let me put it this way — there’s more hard evidence here than the Alabama 2002 penalties, in which no money was ever proven to have changed hands.  That case, by the way, featured the chairman of the committee that referred the allegations to the COI (an U. Oklahoma law professor) blasting the COI for reaching indefensible conclusions and imposing inappropriately harsh penalties.  Did Alabama sue?  No.  Are there no good lawyers or deep pockets in Tuscaloosa?  I guess not, Sailor.

Fight on?  Dream on.

LOL, you guys are in for a rude awaking…..

"Level the playing field?"  Uh, what is that supposed to mean?  We are in  LA, have beautiful women, excellent weather year round, Hollywood, and are private.  How in God’s name will there ever be a even playing field? 

Once again it’s great to be a Trojan!

Two words:

Chewbacca Defense.

scotty124, I’ve never committed any NCAA violations, so I think I can criticize all I want.

If you’re talking about Tennessee, then I still think I can. Even when Mr Mouth was our coach (briefly), nothing but a handful of secondaries, not even the most in the conference during the same time. Nobody’s family getting a free mansion to live in, or players getting cars or anything. I can be 100% sure of that, because no program was as much under the media/rival fan blogger microscope. Nothing could possibly have happened that wouldn’t be public.

Gabe, I don’t know about all that suing the NCAA stuff, and I admit I don’t have a dog in this fight (Other than the satisfaction any UT fan would get from seeing Kiffin suffer for ditching us so fast).

In my novice opinion, as long as the NCAA follows their own guidelines and rules, they aren’t going to be open to any lawsuits. Universities are members of the NCAA voluntarily. They agree to be subject to the NCAA’s rules and to the NCAA’s decisions when it comes to penalties. It’s that simple. It isn’t a court of law. The NCAA infractions commitee isn’t subject to the burden of proof that would be used in court. If it’s their opinion USC is guilty and should be hammered, that’s all they need. If they want to make an example out of USC, they have every right, whether you like it or not. USC can either accept the penalties, or leave the NCAA.

Poor impostor, HyacEnth House, and embittered LSU fanatic, still wallows under the impression that Bush or his family were involved in activities prohibited by the NCAA.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  The NCAA simply cannot dictate to the families of student athletes what legitimate businesses they can participate in.  LaMar Griffin, Bush’s step-father, had the idea for New Era Sports.  Any and all compensation he received from his participation in New Era is completely aboveboard.

The amount of the settlement between the Griffin’s landlord and business partner is not known.  It is well documented that Chief Michael Michaels (aka Michael Pettiford) agreed that the Griffin’s lease of the San Diego home he owned could be paid from "future profits" of New Era.  When New Era ultimately failed to materialize, Michaels (aka Pettiford) sued and a sealed settlement was reached.

Lloyd Lake was in jail much of the time.  He can’t even prove he provided any funding to New Era – as he claimed 5th Amendment protections in a civil suit he filed!  ROTFLMAO!

..and then we will all LAUGH at the NCAA….AGAIN!!!  HAhHAHahHHAhahAhaHahhHahAhHahahhhaahHa….

Poor impostor, "Hyacinth House" (aka George_Tirebiter) and irrelevant trojan fan, still doesn’t understand anything about the function of the NCAA.  This is not about the NCAA "dictating" anything to families of student athletes, you moron.  You have never really seemed to grasp the particulars of this case and have mis-applied your legal short-comings over & over (Miller-Ayala Act), remember that ridiculous claim?  Clearly shows you have no knowledge of legal proceedings, what-so-ever.  You are so far off-point in this matter and it makes you look stupid.  It all comes down to, were adequate institutional policies and procedures in place to facilitate USC’s compliance with NCAA rules and if the adequate policies and procedures were in place, were they being properly monitored and enforced by persons in control at the time of a violation?  The question, did USC demonstrate a lack of "institutional control", can vary depending on the scope of failures which led to a violation, the types of rules violated and the depth of knowledge and reaction of those in control at your school.Or was there a "failure to monitor"?  Which is essentially a step down from the more serious "lack of institutional control".  Being charged with "failure to monitor" means that the NCAA believes that SC had a Compliance Dept. (which they do) but that the school either… didn’t pay proper attention to a limited area of its program, or didn’t pay proper attention for a limited period of time. Both individual programs and entire institutions can be charged with failure to monitor.  Note:  Your Basketball program has already bitten the bullet and your football program was just denied a request to self-impose sanctions & restrictions on it’s own program.   In the future, please address the issues and stop with the incoherent ramblings, which have absolutely nothing to do with the case.  The creation of a "smoke screen" does not confuse those of us who truly understand this case.Fight On!!  

 USC shouldn’t be worried. Nothing significant will come of this "investigation". The NCAA has consistently shown no interest in addressing compliance issues with any of their favored institutions.
 Case in point, Alabama. After receiving a slap on the wrist for for buying high school recruits, Alabama repeatedly violated numerous NCAA regulations, effectively thumbing their nose at the gutless NCAA Committee on Infractions.
 Don’t for anything earth shattering to occur, regardless of the Compliance Committee’s "findings".  

There’s a reason Pete Carrol took the Seattle job. Reggie Kardashian is out of the mix and getting his.  The big losers are the athelets who go play for USC.   This will hurt for years.

You know the funny thing about all this?  What happens if USC get’s slammed with the death penalty?  How does that affect the rest of college football?  Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t it raise the bar on what the NCAA considers and infraction?  If so, the next logical question is who is next after USC?  Logically, it only follows that teams such as Florida with 20+ arrests will be investigated next.  If the NCAA comes down on USC (which I highly doubt they will), I don’t think other teams are understanding the significance of the decision and how it will in the long run affect thier own teams. 

Just a thought. 

I have to agree with Sailor on that one, but if you want a better understanding of what the NCAA would do to Florida for all the Criminal arrest, then look towards Oklahoma under Barry Switzer in the late 80’s. 

To get Death penalty takes a lot, even the Albert Means case and Alabama would of gotten them Death penalty but because of what Bama did to correct the situation, and clean their own house, all they got was 3 years probation and lost of some schalorships.

The NCAA standards are based more of unfair recruiting practices and one player getting special treatment over another player, which in turn gives on College a Rep for being of, WE-pay-U, or grade inflation, or academic cheating, etc, etc, etc.   When it comes to Criminal Actions by players, the NCAA would prefer it was handled in house by the University and the local law enforcement. Deep down no one wants to be known as: Thug U, and the NCAA isn’t part of the Justice Department.

Does USC get the Death Penalty, IMHO: No, to get that from the NCAA is to show a pattern of disreguard of the NCAA rules and regulations, in a repeated manner, over a set period of time, after being place on probation once before in that set period of time.  USC hasn’t really shown that over a set period of time in the Pete Carroll era.  so you can forget the pipe dream of USC and the NCAA Death Penalty.

Probation, yes… Death Penalty NO.

Whatever sanctions USC might get, it won’t be the death penalty. After seeing what it did to SMU, the NCAA will only use that option in very extreme cases.

Personally, I would rather see the NCAA give the Trojans an opportunity to remedy the situation. It would be sad to see the dozens of players at USC who are not culpable suffer for something they did not do. Ditto for the thousands of Trojan fans.

The main focus needs to be on correcting the problem. There is definitely a breakdown somewhere in the USC athletic department. My opinion is that it starts with Mike Garrett. Has any AD in recent memory hired more rule breaking coaches? Lane Kiffin is nothing more than Tim Floyd in cleats.

Historically, this is one of the elite programs in college athletics. USC is one of the top schools in the country. Instead of coming on these boards with their arrogant "We are USC" attitudes, I would like to see the Trojan alumni demand some integrity from their athletic department.

It is time for USC to get back to basics and clean house. They are better than this. It is time for them to start acting like it.

This discussion seems to be divided into two camps.  Those who want USC to be hammered beyond recognition because they don’t like USC, and those who want USC to get off lightly because they like them (I am in the latter group).  Most of the opinions posted on here are obvioulsy influenced by the posters like/dislike for USC.  That isn’t how it works, nor should it.

The infractions committee owes it to everyone involved to be impartial and unbiased and hand down a decision that is both fair and in line with decisions that have been handed down before.

A few things to remember:

1)  It isn’t like a booster payed Bush to come to USC.  He was already a starter when this whole mess started.

2)  It isn’t like a local business gave Bush a job turning oxygen into carbon dioxide, ala Rhett Bomar.

3)  USC did not gain an unfair advantage because of any actions by Lake.

4)  Lake tried to buy his way into a professional relationship with Bush because Bush was a major talent.  It wouldn’t have mattered if Bush played at USC, UCLA, LSU, Tennessee or any other school.  Lake’s interest was in the player, not the school.  In fact, Lake actually worked against USC’s best interests by trying to influence Bush to leave school early for the NFL.

My opinion is USC is no more likely to get hammered than they are to get a slap on the wrist.  I believe the decision will be somewhere in the middle.  Again, that is only an opinion.

Pablo — I hear what you are saying, but it would be premature to "demand" integrity from the athletic department before we know all the facts.  I don’t believe the evidence available to us warrants the hysteria from others on these boards. 

It appears to me that what happened at USC could happen anywhere.  If the NCAA says otherwise, steps will be taken to remedy the situation.  You can count on it.

As for the arrogance of USC fans, these are difficult times.  We are subject to all kinds of outlandish attacks and smear tactics from the more irrational people on these boards.  Some USC fans choose to spit in the eye of their detractors.  I wouldn’t criticize them without recognizing the arrogance of the most vocal accusers who don’t know, or care how close some of their own players might be to commiting major infractions.

For those of you predicting gloom and doom, ask yourself one question.  Would you be as righteously indignant if it were your school in the crosshairs?  I didn’t think so.  Me thinks thou art a hypocrite.

Come on kingsfan, why do you have to be so rational?  Now they are going to figure out I’m just amusing myself by pissing them off? 

Especially Hy House….I can get that guy to write whole dissertations on absolutely nothing!!! 

SailorGabe says "Logically, it only follows that teams such as Florida with 20+ arrests will be investigated next." I don’t believe that Florida’s arrests had nothing to do with NCAA violations, or is the NCAA now monitoring all criminal behavior. Florida has taken a beating in the media for it’s players’ off-the-field problems, but don’t lump the Gators in with NCAA-rule-violators USC.

….that is "had anything to do with NCAA violations"

Do you really think anyone is trying to convince a Trojan fan of anything?  We just enjoy making them look as delusional as SEC Fan.  Of course, any fan base happy to trade Carroll for Kiffin has some issues anyway.  (Hey, the guy who had one abortive season with Al Davis better prepares players for the pros than the guy with 15 years of NFL experience!)

Kingsfan – point taken.

Buckspa…I have to disagree with you regarding Alabama cleaning their act up after the Means case. They hired a lame duck coach (Mike Shula) to be their scapegoat during probation. During Shula’s tenure, multiple team members were arrested for serious criminal offenses. Even into Saban’s time players have been arrested and more NCAA violations committed. Point being, the NCAA has their favorites and will do everthing in their power to shelter them.

Dixie — Ask an Alabama fan if losing 20+ scholarships twice in a 10 year period is being protected by the NCAA.  Alabama’s penalties in 1993 and 2002 were among the worst the NCAA has ever administered.  So the "coddling thing" is nonsense.

Players committing crimes are violating legal standards, not NCAA standards.  States already have laws against DUI, domestic violence, guns, drugs, you name it.  Universities have rules and honor codes.  The NCAA doesn’t need to step further into that process.  Those issues come down to the discretion of the coach, the AD, and the local DA, as it should be.

Kingsfan — I just don’t buy the "it happens everywhere" argument or the "it could happen anywhere" argument.  UNC has more than a few guys capable of generating huge NBA and marketing contracts, and somehow the program manages to keep people like Lake at arm’s length.  Same thing for dozens of football and basketball programs across the country.  There’s a simple formula for success here — educate your players and families, and don’t let people like Lake into your locker roomor the sidelines.

I wouldn’t be happy if Yahoo came out tomorrow with reports that Hansbrough was collecting tons of benefits from a guy UNC let "hang around" the program. I also wouldn’t be so hypocritical to claim we should get off lightly or avoid punishment for all the reasons USC fans cite.  I’m just tired of the notion in this country that rules don’t apply to "me" or "us" because we’re special, or the circumstances allowed it — whatever.

Ultimately, it’s the same mentality that allows bankers to cash multi-million dollar bonuses with a stright face while taxpayer subsidies keep them from going bankrupt.  Does anyone in this country step forward and take responsibility for anything anymore?

heel, Trojan fans didn’t send Pete Carroll packing.  That was his decision.  He earned the right to go out when and how he wanted.

Trojan fans didn’t hire Lane Kiffin.  Mike Garrett did that.  He didn’t even ask our opinions.  Can ya believe it?  Should we throw temper tantrums and refuse to support our team? 

In 2001, USC hired a guy with 3 mediocre seasons as an NFL coach.  Most people weren’t impressed.  I think he did a pretty good job of building the program and developing NFL talent, don’t you?!  I will take a wait and see attitude, if you don’t mind.

BTW – if you really think you are making anyone but yourself look delusional, you have issues.

King — I’m not the one suggesting Kiffin is an upgrade from Carroll, Carroll should have left, or Kiffin should not have been hired.  Look to your own fan base for those.

Carroll did not have 3 mediocre seasons as an NFL coach.  He had 11 very successful seasons as an NFL position coach and coordinator and 4 seasons as a head coach, with a 33-31 record.  This doesn’t mean he was a better hire than Kiffin — as you said, only time will tell that.  But if we’re comparing resumes at the point of hiring (and you seem to be doing that), let’s get our facts straight.

In basketball, I like to see UCLA, Kentucky, Kansas, and even Duke doing well.  In football, the Pac-10 is just more interesting when USC is a national power.  I don’t want to see the program buried.  I just tired of the rationalizations.  As I said, it doesn’t happen everywhere, and it doesn’t for good reasons.

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Heel, I will start with an item we agree on:

Dixie — Ask an Alabama fan if losing 20+ scholarships
twice in a 10 year period is being protected by the NCAA.  Alabama’s penalties in
1993 and 2002 were among the worst the NCAA has ever administered.  So the
"coddling thing" is nonsense.

The NCAA is run by the member schools. 
If there is favoritism toward any school, all other schools and
conferences are part of the conspiracy.

Kingsfan — I
just don’t buy the "it happens everywhere" argument or the "it
could happen anywhere" argument. 

That isn’t what I said.

This is what I said:

It appears to me that what happened at USC could happen
anywhere.  If the NCAA says otherwise, steps will be taken to remedy the
situation.  You can count on it.

Since you don’t seem particularly good at connecting the
dots, I will ‘splain.

The evidence seems to indicate that Lake
and his partner got to Bush through his parents.  Even Lake
admits that.  No evidence that has
surfaced, to date, has indicated USC knew what was going on.  Lake has
made some unsubstantiated accusations, but they seem pretty weak to me.  Bottom line is if an agent wants to get to a
player, and the player or his parents are willing, it’s gonna happen no matter
where he goes to school.

Now I’m sure the NCAA has evidence we haven’t seen and they
might say USC should have known.  As I
said above, we will deal with it if that happens.  We ask no quarter.

UNC has more than a few guys capable of generating huge
NBA and marketing contracts, and somehow the program manages to keep people
like Lake at arm’s length. 

Basketball teams have a dozen or so players.  Most football teams have 100 give or
take.  Do you really think Butch Davis
and his staff can babysit 100 or more 18-23 year-olds?  Please tell me you know for a fact that no
one on the UNC football team will get stupid and create a violation, or break
the law.  If you really believe North Carolina, or any
other school is immune to this sort of thing, you are incredibly naïve.

I also
wouldn’t be so hypocritical to claim we should get off lightly or avoid
punishment for all the reasons USC fans cite. 

As I said before:

The infractions committee owes it to
everyone involved to be impartial and unbiased and hand down a decision that is
both fair and in line with decisions that have been handed down before.

You claim to believe in people taking responsibility for
their actions.  I believe in personal
responsibility, too.  I also believe in
being clear, honest and accurate.  You seem
to struggle in those areas.

I’m just tired of the notion in this country that rules
don’t apply to "me" or "us" because we’re special, or the
circumstances allowed it — whatever.

Ultimately, it’s the same mentality that allows bankers to cash multi-million
dollar bonuses with a stright face while taxpayer subsidies keep them from
going bankrupt.  Does anyone in this country step forward and take
responsibility for anything anymore?

ROTFL.  Stop it, you’re
killing me.  No offense, but you’re being
way, way too melodramatic.  Let’s stick
to the subject at hand, k?!

Of course, any fan base happy to trade Carroll for Kiffin
has some issues anyway. 

King — I’m not the one suggesting Kiffin is an upgrade
from Carroll, Carroll should have left, or Kiffin should not have been
hired.  Look to your own fan base for those.

You keep making comments about the USC fan
base.  How many USC fans do you know, really?  Any?  Could
you be making generalizations based on a few message board posts?  If you make any more claims about knowledge
of the USC fan base, I’m afraid I am going to have to ask for sources.  If you refuse to give any, what little
credibility you have will go kaput.

I see and talk to USC fans every
day and I couldn’t begin to tell you what most USC fans think.  There are just too many. 

Most of the fans I know have nothing
but respect for Pete Carroll and what he accomplished here.  Most I talk to are hopeful Kiffin can keep it
going.  Nothing more, nothing less.  I haven’t heard anyone say he is an upgrade.  We are just hoping he is Carroll Light.

Carroll did not have 3 mediocre seasons as an NFL
coach.  He had 11 very successful seasons as an NFL position coach and
coordinator and 4 seasons as a head coach, with a 33-31 record.  This
doesn’t mean he was a better hire than Kiffin - as you said, only time will
tell that.  But if we’re comparing resumes at the point of hiring (and you
seem to be doing that), let’s get our facts straight.
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Yeah, okay, position coach, OC,
whatever.  Wins and losses only
count for the head coach, not position coaches. 
As you pointed out, Pete’s record was 33-31.  I would say that is mediocre, wouldn’t
you?!  I wish Pete success in Seattle, but I think he
is more suited for the college game.  I
hope he proves me wrong.

One final point.   The Pac-10 is one of the few conferences that
does their own investigation of possible NCAA rules violations by member
schools.  New commish, Larry Scott has
seen the evidence and has stated he doesn’t believe USC will be hit hard.  He might be wrong, but I’d say he knows a bit
more about it than you do.

I still say when it comes to Pete Carroll leaving, even though it was his decision, he saw something coming down the pike.  He sure in the hell got out of Dodge real quick when the Seattle job came up. My reasoning is this:

One you could be king of your own backyard, get the best table at Spagos, or whatever club is out there, all the while keeping the closest thing to an NFL team in the spot light of the Entertainment Capital of the World…

or

Go to a rainly city, to a team that has it up and down in the past few years, try and rebuild it in a league that money and ego’s count more then the play on the field at times

Look, when Pete Carroll was coaching USC, it was known by 2004, all USC did was send a LOI to a High School recruit with the note, we have a scholarship waiting for you, and a good chance that kid was signing up to play for USC.  Now Pete Carroll working in the NFL and it takes more then just faxing an offer to play for the Seahawks. Between free agency, trades, and the draft, if you have one bad apple on an NFL team you might as well just hang up the season.  It’s one thing to coach and mold young boys into adulthood, it’s another to deal with NFL players ranging in ages between 21 and 36 ( even though retirement age is about 27), making sure that your star back or reciever is getting enough touches,  some young rookie isn’t out blowing his new found riches/beating his girlfriend/getting a DUI/fighting in the club, the ownership is pressuring you to get in the playoff and then the Super Bowl, etc, etc, etc, all the while making sure you place a team on the field that will get butts in the seats.  The pressures of being an NFL Head Coach are far more demanding then they are being a coach in the NCAA. 

I got to meet Jimmy Johnson one time, and got to ask a couple of questions, and when I asked him which he prefered, his view was, he prefer the college game, it not as nevre racking as the pros.  he said you really got to be on your toes in the pros because it 100 times more demanding then the Colleges. Thats why they play so much moreto be a Pro coach.

So I say that Carroll saw something coming down the pike when it came to USC, that in this case he couldn’t control and someone came up and gave him an out, by have control over the Seahawks.  But I still say, because the general overall program of USC was run clean, that if USC does get slapped, it won’t be the Death Pently.  But 2 years probation makes far more sense to me.

Kingsfan — So, you didn’t say "it could happen anywhere."  Except you quote yourself saying exactly that.  The modifier about the NCAA potentially having a different opinion doesn’t remove the fact you said it or change the context of the preceding sentence in any substantive way.  So you can stop pretending the nuances of your position, to which you devote a 1,000 words in your subsequent post, were somehow self-evident in the original.

No need to go into the rest of it — we agree to disagree.  As I indicated previously, I wish your program the best.  College sports needs more stores like Leinart’s 4th down conversion against Notre Dame and less stories like Lloyd Lake’s marketing ambitions and Derrick Rose’s SAT.  I think we can agree on that.

So I posted the entire sentence rather than cut the last half.  That doesn’t change the fact that you repeatedly called out an entire fanbase.

I knew you were going to object whether I left the sentence in tact or cut it..  I figured if I cut it you would accuse me of taking the "it happens everywhere" comment out of context.  Your comment was a distortion of my position and deserved to be addressed, 1000 words or not.

You claim to be a reasonable person.  I hope you are.  Time will tell.

:roll:

The NCAA has taken less than a year to investigate Michigan for far less improprieties than USC, which has remained free from scrutiny for almost FIVE YEARS. There is an ugly paper trail that should be on the front page of the LA Times and if the NCAA has any integrity at all, the case is open and shut. Reggie Bush was ineligible in 2005 and the program should face serious sanctions, not just loss of “wins” or probation, real punishment like loss of scholarships, not retroactively but now. Hear that Seantrel Henderson. I have posted incriminating documents and rest my case. Perhaps the NCAA should as well.http://wp.me/pKBYM-du

Here’s where the phony HyacEnth House falls flat on his face.  The Miller-Ayala Athlete Agent Act has nothing to do with the NCAA.  It is Califoirnia state legislation that governs the conduct of would-be athlete agents.

Part of that act prohibits a would-be agent from recovering any "compensation" from a potential client, if the would-be agent acted in vioolation of the law.

This puts the convicted felon Lloyd Lake in a bind for his civil suit.  If his claim is that he gave Reggie Bush money or other compensation, in violation of the law, he has no recourse to recover anything.  If he claims he acted lawfully, then there is nothing he could provide to the NCAA that would suggest a violation of their regulations.

Since the criminal Lake is obviously motivated by spite and greed, it should be obvious to even the dimmest of dimbulbs at the NCAA that nothing Lake says is in any way credible.  By latching on to Regiie Bush, Lake had an opportunity to "be somebody."  But now he is just an ex-con gang member with no future and no money (outside of his concaine sales).

This won’t stop haters like the phoney HyacEnth House from flapping his gums.

heel…The Committee on Infractions called the Means case their "worst infractions case ever…", worse than the SMU death penalty case. Alabama then committed more violations while on probation. Alabama received sanctions from the NCAA, SMU received the Death Penalty. Please explain how this in not preferential treatment.

Here’s where the phony "HyacInth House" falls flat on his face.  I know very well what the Miller-Ayala Califoirnia (sic) Athlete Agent Act.  It is a classic 1-L mistake to take a law and attempt to apply it to the wrong situation.  Hilarious!  What you have failed (again) to establish is what is has to do with the NCAA’s case against USC.  Allow me to answer this question for you… NOTHING.We tire of you coming on here attempting to sound educated when you only make a fool of yourself yet again, you are way over you head when it comes to legal issues.  I know it, the readers know it… you are the only one who doesn’t seem to understand. You have not made 1 single, valid point as usual.  Sorry.Give up George_Tirebiter/Hyacinth House, Amicus Dye, you looked more uninformed with each post. Fight On!!

Sorry impostor HyacEnth House.   You are wrong on your facts and you are wrong in your conclusions.  The credibility of Lake’s story is key to the NCAA investigation.

Lake thought he was on the gravy train when he hooked up with LaMar Griffin. But he’s just a punk.  He has impeached his own credibility by invoking the 5th amendment during attempted depositions for a civil suit he filed!

Have you ever heard of such a thing!?

The fact of the matter is, the NCAA knows they are way out on a limb, and any mis-step could bring their entire voluntary operation crumbling down.

Imagine the firestorm if Michigan gets popped for extra practices, Tennessee gets popped for sending co-eds across state lines, and USC skates.  I think the Internet would explode.

What is really the problem?  The fact USC has (with the exception of a miracle win by Texas in the BCS title game) pretty much owned the rest of the countries top teams on the field?  I understand it pains you to see your top teams lose on the field to USC, but don’t you think that complaining is kinda shallow?

Notre Dame is upset b/c USC has beat them home and away.
Ohio State is upset b/c USC beat them home and away.
Auburn is upset b/c USC beat them home and away.
Arkansas is upset b/c USC beat them home and away.
Nebraska is upset b/c USC beat them home and away.
BYU is upset b/c USC beat them home and away.
Virginia Tech is upset b/c USC beat them away.
Michigan is upset b/c USC beat them in the bowl.
Illinios is upset b/c USC beat them in the bowl.
Penn St is upset b/c USC beat them in the bowl.
Oklahoma is upset b/c USC beat them in the bowl.
Iowa is upset b/c USC beat them in the bowl.
Boston College is upset b/c USC beat them in the bowl.

That is a lot of top teams in the country and USC has bested them all.  The only real shame is USC is being prevented from adding Florida and LSU to this list….But don’t worry it will happen soon.

With all of that cheating and USC still couldn’t win. If i was Pete i would of went to Seattle too. USC wouldn’t win 8 games in the SEC

I don’t know.  4-0 (average score 42-15) seems like a good start.  Of course, two of those might get wiped soon.  I gues 2-2 with an asterisk beats 0-4.

As for cheating, who knew 5 Pac-10 schools were among the 29 worst offenders in NCAA history?  Looks like USC is getting ready to move into some exclusive territory, putting 3 Pac-10 programs into the Top 10.  Ouch.  At least USC and UCLA have something to show for it.

"Among schools, those just behind ASU and
Southern Methodist with seven all-time majors include Florida State,
Auburn, Minnesota, Oklahoma, Texas A&M, Wichita State and
Wisconsin. California and UCLA are among seven schools with six, while
Washington and USC are included in a group of a dozen schools with five
majors."
http://bustersports.com/blog/buster-blog/2010/02/27/pac-10-the-biggest-cheats-of-all-time/ https://web1.ncaa.org/LSDBi/exec/homepage

Sorry — 4 in the top 16.  I guess serious head colds and message boards don’t mix.

Hyacenth House -

I get it that you don’t like Hyacinth House, George T, Sailor Gabe, or whatever other USC fan catches your attention.

I get it that you don’t like USC.

What I don’t get is why you end your posts with fight on!!

Sailorgabe,

Since you asked, I will tell you "what’s really the problem" with USC.

Ask any six year old if he gets 100% on a test by cheating if he is the smartest kid in the class—he’ll probably say NO he’s not the smartest—just the biggest cheater.

Your theory that everyone is jealous and upset because USC won some football and bowl games and somehow all this criticism is shallow because some teams got beat by USC is one of the most ridiculous theories I have heard in a while.

USC won all of those games and bowls using ineligible players who have been paid by agents while undergraduates of USC—-i.e. Cheating.

I am not impressed that a team wins a lot of games by buying the best recruits that it can line up by payments and special compensation, nor am I jealous or shallow for being rightfully upset by unfair football practices that make a team a "powerhouse".

Just like the little boy said—- he’s not the smartest by getting a 100% on his test and USC is far from the best team—they are simply one of the biggest football/basketball cheaters to come along in a few years.

Nothing to get shallow or jealous over at all.
Cheating is what this is really all about to answer your question.

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<![endif]—><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->CollegeFootball#1
said, “Since you asked, I
will tell you "what’s really the problem" with USC.

Ask any six year old if he gets 100% on a test by cheating if he is the
smartest kid in the class—he’ll probably say NO he’s not the smartest—just
the biggest cheater.”

It would be nice if life were as black and white as your analogy.  Unfortunately, most situations, including
this one, require a bit more analysis to understand. 

<!—[if gte vml 1]>

<![endif]—><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->CollegeFootball#1
said, “USC won all of
those games and bowls using ineligible players who have been paid by agents
while undergraduates of USC—-i.e. Cheating.”

I believe it would be more accurate to say USC had one, as in
a single, player accused of taking money from a wannabe agent, not players who
have been paid by agents.  

As far as I am aware no one but Lloyd Lake
is claiming USC knew anything about it.  Some
people like you, who weren’t involved in any way are jumping to conclusions and
throwing accusations around.  So far, it’s
just typical hysteria.

<!—[if gte vml 1]>

<![endif]—><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->CollegeFootball#1
said, “I am not impressed
that a team wins a lot of games by buying the best recruits that it can
line up by payments and special compensation, nor am I jealous or shallow
for being rightfully upset by unfair football practices that make a team a
"powerhouse".”

USC has not been accused by anyone with any credibility of
buying recruits with payments or special compensation.  Only by people like you. 

Ok, let me see if I have this straight.  You are saying it angers you for a college
football team to be accused of having a player put himself above the team, and
make a deal with a wannabe agent. 
Ok.  But it is ok for someone like
you to smear everyone else associated with the program with totally false
accusations.  It’s ok for someone like
you call into question the character of the entire team, even though Reggie
Bush is the only one accused of wrong doing. 
You think it is ok for someone like you to ignore the facts and spread vicious
rumors about a situation you really know nothing about.  You suspect, therefore it is true, right?!

USC didn’t win all those games because of Reggie Bush.  He contributed to a lot of the wins, but so
did a lot of other players who worked hard and didn’t get extra benefits.

In fact, Lake claims to
have paid Bush in 2004 and 2005,  Well,
USC won a lot of games in 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007 and 2008.  Your claim that USC wouldn’t be a powerhouse
without ineligible players is a bunch of crap.

<!—[if gte vml 1]>

<![endif]—><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->CollegeFootball#1
said, “Just like the
little boy said—- he’s not the smartest by getting a 100% on his test and
USC is far from the best team—they are simply one of the biggest football/basketball
cheaters to come along in a few years.

Nothing to get shallow or jealous over at all.
Cheating is what this is really all about to answer your question. “

Maybe you should sit down and take a few deep breaths.  Breathe into a bag, if necessary.

Ignoring the facts and using smear tactics says a lot more
about your character, or lack of it, than it does about USC, or any particular
fans.  I’m just sayin’.

Kingsfan,

To quote Shakespeare: "Me thinks that thou dost protest (way) too much."
Which is usually a sign of guilt and insecurity.

Reggie Bush was just one of the "players" under review by the NCAA, and far from the only one. The evidence that was loaded onto the baggage cart that rolled into the hotel meeting room in Tempe had an awful lot of information and testimony on it.

As bad as Reggie may have been—I don’t think his behavior accounts for all of those files alone.

After 5+ years of digging, there has been speculation that it involved NCAA investigation of matters well beyond the "pay for play" stuff around Reggie/OJ/McKnight.

Coaches, players, agents, friendly boosters, special academic treatment of atheletes,—-let your imagination wander and see what else may be pulled into the daylight and piled onto that baggage cart.
 Just having Reggie and Joe "taken care of" with cars, cash and a house may only be the tip of the iceberg.

One of the USC coaches had legal representation with him during the testimony given in the Infraction Committe chamber—-not a typical scenario for appearing before the NCAA.

Joe McKnight (wins in 2007, 2008, 2009) and OJ Mayo were some of the others and cheating and special inducements/promises to recruits that involve houses, payments of cash, condos etc not available or typical of other student athelete arrangements are all illegal and considered cheating by the NCAA Infractions Committee llast time I looked.

Depending on the forthcoming rulings from the Infractions Committee, a whole lot of wins, championships and other awards may all come crashing down.

But of course I have been ignoring the facts and engaging in smear tactics.

I only know what I see and read in the papers and on the Internet about USC and people who are knowledgable about this situation are working from the same facts and smear tactics—go figure.

Take a few deep breaths into this brown paper bag—-and maybe you’ll feel better.

Seems Hyancenth House’s mission in life is to prove the old saw that "a little knowledge can be dangerous"

First we get a lecture on the legal meaning of "strict liability" as clearly exemplified by the traffic code. This then becomes the corner stone of logic as applied to NCAA by-laws which, as we all know, are an integral part of the legal system under which we all live.

To our "would be" legal authority: This is the age of the internet so any nimrod who really cares to know exactly what "strict liability" means should go to places like this one:
http://law.freeadvice.com/general_practice/legal_remedies/strict_liabilty.htm

Assuming you do… you will learn the term "strict liability" refers to the legal concept of making "some persons responsible for damages their actions or products cause,"  and this is completely irrelevant to the subject on which you pontificate. It also proves you are not a lawyer and any experience you’ve had with "The Law" seems most likely to have involved nothing more than a numbered jump suit.

As far as your knowledge of the NCAA or of the USC/Bush/Mayo investigations, you know nothing more that what’s been reported, blogged, or just rumored. All you say is regurgitated stuff whose sources are yet again… regurgitated stuff. You say there are photos of Carroll aside the likes of Michael Michaels and Lloyd Lake… where are they? Got any links to prove it? Guess not… even if such a picture does exist… so what? … just more regurgitation. And on and on and on… DO YOU HAVE A LIFE? It simply is endless…. more and more Bogus And Ridiculous Fabrications… BARF… about the facts and their potential meaning.  HH tells us that there are NCAA by laws which require "Competent Oversight" of student athletes. Perhaps on campus or in near proximity. Does such "Oversight" to any and all geographic locations in which a current athlete resides? Hard to get that far as serious invasion of privacy issues would ensue. Oh and here’s a link to get our legal authority up to speed on privacy:
http://www.rbs2.com/privacy.htm

Take note of the second paragraph under: 1. What is Privacy?

You’ve provided a link that shows the deed to a house bought by Michael Michaels… so what? By the way "Snoop" did ya notice that Michaels bought the place with no money down? To me and at THIS point in time, that’s absolutely hilarious as it seems the party who really benefitted here is Michaels.

Bottom line to this whole USC/Reggie Bush/ O.J. Mayo/NCAA thing is that, as it has always been… the Head Scoutmaster gets to decide on just who will be coming back to summer camp next year… nothing more.

Lastly, one of your rants ends with:

"Truth will always be truth, regardless of lack of understanding, disbelief or ignorance."

HERE! HERE! …Probably the most accurate if not prescient thing you’ve ever said. I can live with that… but the real question is… CAN or WILL YOU?

trojanwar,Did any of you Idiots, actually graduate from USC?  Strict Liability, using your web-site is defined as:  Strict liability is a legal doctrine that makes some persons responsible for damages their actions (or products cause), regardless of any "fault" on their part.  "Your" University (& I don’t believe you graduated in anything after reading your (mis)interpretation of a simple legal definition) is claiming that they are not at fault because they had no knowledge of any wrong-doing.  If you read the NCAA By-law that I listed, it clearly states that USC is to monitor their athletes and it is "their" responsibility to determine that their athletes meet NCAA standards of eligibility.USC is required to have a Compliance Department that provides Competent Oversight to prevent just exactly what transpired in the Reggie Bush, O.J. Mayo & Joe McKnight incidents.  If any athlete receives any compensation they are deemed ineligible. And the fact that you are trying to use a Privacy Law in sheltering a student-athete from University Over-sight tells me that I am dealing with a complete, MORON!!  When an athlete agrees to become a member of the NCAA he subjects himself to over-sight.  He may be required to take a drug test, is required to meet academic standards, etc… STUPID!!USC has already placed it’s Basketball program on self-imposed probation.  They were recently denied permission by the NCAA to do the same thing to their football program.  I don’t think that anyone still thinks that Reggie Bush did not receive improper benefits, but the NCAA is reviewing evidence to see how much USC knew about it.  That’s where the "Ignorance is not a defense", applies.  It is USC’s responsibility or "strict liability" to make sure that their athletes meet eligibility requirements, not the NCAA’s.  The NCAA will now render a decision on what USC’s accountability was in this case.  Anyone that read your laughable attempt to appear knowledgeable about the legalities of this case is rolling on the floor laughing, right now!  Any freshman, Pre-Law student understands the "strict liability" concept.  You just made yourself and any other "graduate" from "your" school look completely ignorant.  You trojans seem to know even less about legal proceedings, than you do football.  Fight On!!  

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<![endif]—><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->CollegeFootball#1
said, “To quote Shakespeare: "Me thinks that
thou dost protest (way) too much." Which is usually a sign of
guilt and insecurity.”

Since I’m not accused of anything, I’m not sure what I am
supposed to be guilty of or insecure about.

I do appreciate a good Shakespeare reference, though, even
though it was misapplied.

<!—[if gte vml 1]>

<![endif]—><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->CollegeFootball#1
said, “Reggie Bush was just one of the
"players" under review by the NCAA, and far from the only one.  The evidence that was loaded onto the
baggage cart that rolled into the hotel meeting room in Tempe had an awful lot of information and
testimony on it.

As bad as Reggie may have been—I don’t think his behavior accounts for all of
those files alone.”

I’m only aware of one other player under review.  That would be OJ Mayo.  I’m not a hoops fan.  I’m not much interested in the hoops part of
the case.

If Bush was far from the only one, there must have been
several others.  Perhaps you could
enlighten us as to who they might be.

<!—[if gte vml 1]>

<![endif]—><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->CollegeFootball#1
said, “After 5+ years of digging, there has been
speculation that it involved NCAA investigation of matters well beyond the
"pay for play" stuff around Reggie/OJ/McKnight.”

Let’s define speculation.

This from wordnetweb.princeton.edu:

<!--[if !supportLists]-->1)      <!--[endif]-->guess:
a message expressing an opinion based on incomplete evidence

<!--[if !supportLists]-->2)      <!--[endif]-->a
hypothesis that has been formed by speculating or conjecturing (usually with
little hard evidence)

Ok, so some people who have nothing to do with the case and
little or no hard evidence are guessing that there might be more going on than
has been reported.  That isn’t much to
hang your hat on.  Somehow, I don’t think
that will stop you.

Here is a link to the definition:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=7Xt&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&defl=en&q=define:speculation&ei=Hm-NS_mPJZm0tgPXroTiAw&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAYQkAE

That is what is known as a source.  People who want to be taken seriously often
include sources in their posts.  That
assures other readers that one has done one’s homework and isn’t just talking
out their arse.

<!—[if gte vml 1]>

<![endif]—><!--[if !vml]--><!--[endif]-->CollegeFootball#1
said, “Coaches, players, agents, friendly
boosters, special academic treatment of atheletes,—-let your imagination wander and see what else may be pulled
into the daylight and piled onto that baggage cart. “
<!--[if !supportLineBreakNewLine]-->
<!--[endif]-->

An admission of guilt! 
Let your imagination wander.  Don’t
worry about facts, just make it up as you go. 
See how far you can stretch it, then call it the truth.

I like to call that a Col. Jessep moment.

Kaffee: Did you order the code
red?

Col. Jessep:  You’re GD
right I did.

Here’s the deal cf, you are full of crap.  You have no credibility.  You make all kinds of outrageous assertions without
a shred of evidence.  You provide no
sources, most likely because you have none. 
You let your imagination wander when accusing others of wrong doing.  The scary part is you deal in character
assassination and see nothing wrong with it.

You need to start providing sources.  Until then we have nothing to discuss.

Hyancenth House:

Without question you have established yourself with this one undeniable distiction:

The largest known reserve of natural gas yet discovered by mankind.

I’ll leave it to the folks at Guneiss to see if there is also a record for the largest number of green teeth ever found with a single digit IQ.

Hyancenth House:

Make that Guinness… yeah I caught the typo

…and don’t see a dentist go to Home Depot and buy some paint.

WHITE paint.

trojanwar,It’s best that you stick to the ad hominem fallacy… but it sure was funny reading your attempt at an intelligent rebuttal!I just wish that it wasn’t so late in the thread, so more bloggers could have read it.  You made yourself look more idiotic than I ever could have… so awesome!Fight On!!

trojanwar,BTW, "Guneiss" would never be confused for or considered as… a typographical error, you moron!  It just reinforces the fact, that you are too stupid to spell!  Sorry.And that would not be considered an ad hominem fallacy… but the simple truth.  Something you refuse to acknowledge.