Updated throughout the day with quick takes from staff.
Jeff Passan recently wrote a column on Yahoo! discussing the current situation concerning 1st-round pick Barret Loux, and the Arizona Diamondbacks - the team which picked him, but which is probably now going to withdraw its offer, based on medical reports. Passan described Loux as a "victim", citing the recent rule which will give Arizona an additional pick in next year's draft, if they do not sign Loux. But is that really the case?
There appears to be no denying Loux has medical issues. While the details are uncertain, various sources report his elbow, and suggestions Tommy John surgery could be needed, as well as concerns over his shoulder, in particular a frayed labrum. Given the latter is a similar problem to the one which has sidelined Brandon Webb for the best part of two season - at a cost of $15 million - one can hardly blame Arizona for being skittish.
I'm not quite sure what Passan expected the Diamondbacks to do. Pay Loux the $2m signing bonus originally negotiated, out of charity? Even if they signed him for a far smaller fee, the move would effectively turn Arizona's first-round pick into a scrub, and lose them a replacement pick next season. Who'd be the "victim" then? Indeed, it's no stretch to suggest the reason they took a flier with the #6 overall pick, was because they'd be covered if he turned out to be "busted." - and Loux had surgery to remove bone chips in his elbow last year.
There's a good reason all these deals are contingent on medicals, because stuff happens. Perhaps the most famous example is RA Dickey. After being drafted by the Rangers, they discovered he was entirely missing his ulnar collateral ligament, and his bonus shrunk from $800K to $75K. Admittedly, the compensation pick was not intended to cover medical issues, but more contract holdouts. Still, expecting teams to pay for broken players is idiotic.
We recently looked at buying a house. After agreeing a price, we got a ten-day inspection period to check the house out for faults and flaws. It turned out to have dry rot, termites, building code violations and so many issues we didn't complete the sale and walked away. That's a good parallel for what happened here. As for Loux, in the worst-case scenario, he will now have to work for a living like the rest of us. While I've no doubt he's disappointed by this, it hardly makes him a "victim," to have had his golden ticket turned to ashes by an MRI.
78 comments
Comments
Harsh.
So…wipe your tears from your dream/millions being taken away from you and go work in insurance?
I don’t see why there necessarily has to be a bad guy here but I do think Loux is at minimum a victim of really unfortunate luck.
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Aug 4, 2010 7:55 PM EDT reply actions
If you buy a winning lottery ticket, and then lose it, are you lucky or unlucky?
Both, and neither, since you end up in exactly the same spot you were before you bought the ticket. I tend to think it’s much the same scenario here.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 4, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Being born with the physical skills to play baseball at a high level is not tantamount to a lottery ticket
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Aug 4, 2010 11:25 PM EDT up reply actions
If it's not winning the genetic lottery
What is it?
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 4, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not even trying crack hard on the D-Backs here...
But can we at least get a little empathy for the kid who lost millions here?
Suck it up cupcake isn’t doing it for me.
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Aug 4, 2010 11:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Personally, the idea of PAYING millions, to someone who has never played at even the lowest professional level, is one I find pretty hard to justify.
But then, college sports are pretty much a lost concept to me. However, let’s not get into that…
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Good analogy on the home purchase. Because, Loux, like the home seller just sold to the highest bidder. Oh wait, he was DRAFTED he didn’t have a choice where he went. You and the home seller had a choice and decided to allow an inspection before making a binding choice. Instead, through a unilateral draft the D-Backs got to lock up his MLB and realistically his minor league rights, potentially destroy his college eligibility and walk away leaving him with nothing, no money and unable to return to A&M. You are right, he lost nothing in this scenario.
Please, tell me you are not any sort of a teacher in your day job. The thought of you shaping young minds frightens me.
He is victim for this reason, the D-Backs had every reason and opportunity to inquire into his health before they drafted him – they chose not to. Now they get to walk away without penalty and get the 7th pick next year, no harm no foul for falling down on the job of doing homework on potential draft picks. While he on the other hand potentially lost his college eligibility and the ability to be drafted by another team this year.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 4, 2010 8:05 PM EDT reply actions
Wrong on a couple of counts
First off, it’s my understanding that teams can’t give potential draft picks medical exams before the draft. So why would the Diamondbacks have any chance to know about the tear in Loux’s labrum? Magic?
Second, the Diamondbacks did nothing to Loux’s college eligibility. Plenty of players get drafted, decide not to sign, and go on to college. The only potential damage is by the involvement of the MLBPA- who did not get involved at the behest of the Diamondbacks, I’m sure.
It’s an unfortunate circumstance for him, I know. But thousands of kids can’t make it to the majors for one reason or another. He got further along than many before that dream died, but he’s not the first person it’s happened to.
"It's a fez. I'm wearing a fez now. Fezes are cool."
by kishi on Aug 4, 2010 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, you are wrong.
Players can submit to a pre draft physical, at their will, if a team requests a physical. In 2009 the Rangers asked Tanner Scheppers to have a pre draft physical because of previous injuries and he did. Shock and awe, your unsubstantiated understanding belied by mlb.com.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090917&content_id=7018480&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
Also the labrum wasn’t the only issue, the D-Backs had to know about his prior bone chip surgery or they were beyond inept in performing their background check. I think we can all agree, not asking a kid slotted to be paid over 2.5 million to do a pre draft physical isn’t exactly a prudent business decision.
Second, note the use of the word potentially in the phrase “potentially destroy his college eligibility.” It is important. If you read the underlying Passan article you will see that Loux is fearful of losing his eligibility because he has contacted the MLB Players Union regarding his situation. In effect, going to the organization meant to protect him as professional will destroy his college eligibility. The D-Backs could POTENTIALLY cause him to lose his eligibility, no small thing for Loux.
Blindly, supporting the D-Backs here is homerism of the worst kind.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 4, 2010 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess you didn't read the Passan article very well
I hope you aren’t a teacher in your day job – or, at least, that your curriculum doesn’t include reading comprehension. Because you appear to have missed this part:
Of course, perhaps “Career Sgt. Zim” knows more about the process than a professional journalist like Jeff Passan?
Basically, teams have to pick based on a very limited set of knowledge – just like when we look at a house. We can see obvious flaws like fire damage, but have no way of knowing if there are hidden problems like termites.
Loux is perfectly free to walk away from the Diamondbacks and not sign for them – just as they are free to walk away from him. He gets to sign for another club next year, the D-backs get to sign another pitcher. And are you claiming the D-backs forced Loux to contact the MLB Players Union? That’s laughable: any repercussions which might result from this are entirely the result of his own actions.
Seems you’re not very keen on personal responsibility either.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 4, 2010 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
The responsibilty was on the D-Backs
Before you cast reading comprehension stones, check yours. It does not say they ASKED for information or a PHYSICAL predraft. If he refused? They shouldn’t have drafted him, period. The D Backs should have done their homework, but they didn’t. That is on them, no Loux.
Also, after being drafted and having a dispute with your club contactin MLBPA is pretty standard. You just cant seem to admit the D Backs screwed Loux. They screwed him by not doing their homework and cost him the chance to be drafted by another team this year.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 4, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
So, in your universe
Every team needs to ask every potential draftee for a pre-draft physical – because, after all, except for the overall #1 there’s no way to guarantee any given player will be there for you to pick. And since I assume teams would want their own medical staff to do the check-up, that’s 30 medicals per draft pick.
Do you appreciate how ridiculous you are sounding?
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 4, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
They are going to pay him millions of dollars, no? So shouldn’t they at least ask their top 5 guys? What other industries should be exempt from having to conduct due diligence before they take unilateral action?
Do you appreciate how ridiculous you sound saying they shouldn’t?
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 4, 2010 11:59 PM EDT reply actions
Ok, let's suppose
The D-backs (or any other team concerned) did their medical beforehand. The results are the same. Loux doesn’t get picked, and doesn’t get a huge bonus. Exactly the same end result.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 12:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm guessing
The main concept behind that would be the fact that this situation could have been avoided in such a scenario. Regardless, it’s asinine to think that the D-backs are the villain in this story.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on Aug 5, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree it could have been avoid, nay should have been avoided. But why do the D Backs get a pass here? They drafted him and thus blocked other teams from taking him, other teams that may have signed him. Ther actions cost Loux, they drafted him – he didnt draft them.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Do you honestly think
That another team would have signed him under the same circumstances? It doesn’t matter who drafted him, the injury would have still prevented him from playing.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on Aug 5, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The Passan article seems to suggest that other teams may have indeed cleared him. Also as a lower draft pick he would have been less of a risk, the cost/benefit analysis changes according to the round of the pick. In last years draft would he have been worth taking a second, third or lower round gamble on with his history and injuries? We will never know.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
That's simply a guessing game
And I’m on the side that thinks very few, if any, teams would be willing to sign a guy with a torn labrum. Plus, the idea that…
Is pretty much irrelevant because he was projected to go within the first two rounds. There was absolutely on way he would have dropped out of the top 10.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on Aug 5, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions
We will never know that because the D Backs drafted him.
You lost me, if he was projected to go in the first two rounds how is there absolutely no way he drops out of the top ten? The first two rounds have way more than 10 picks.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions
The top 10
Rounds that is…
He was projected to go within the first two rounds which essentially means that no one was expecting him to have a torn labrum. The argument that he could have been “a lower draft pick” (I’m assuming you’re talking about something outside of the signing bonus rounds 1-10) is pretty much debunked by all of the pre-draft ratings and projections. If the D-backs didn’t take him in the first two rounds, some other team would have.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on Aug 5, 2010 6:32 PM EDT up reply actions
That makes more sense, I was confused. Even later in the first rounds his signing bonus slotting changes significantly. Each spot represents a dollar differential, we cant predict what another team would have deemed an acceptable risk. All we know is the D Backs changed their minds too late for this kid to have any shot this year.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Well
Like I just said, there wasn’t any implication that he would drop any further than the first two rounds. Even up to the very seconds leading up to the draft there were no reports of an injury. Judging by that, I’d have to assume that none of the teams thought he was an injury liability. That means he would have been assured at least $500K – $1M. Are there teams willing to spend that much money on an unproven, low-upside, pitcher with a torn labrum? Doubtful.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on Aug 5, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
If you cant speak for the D Backs org how can you speak for all the other teams. The difference between 2 mil plus and 500k is pretty big.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I think
I’m speaking for myself when I say that something is doubtful. As in, it’s doubtful in my eyes. How about this, let’s put you in the shoes of a GM.
Based off of this mock draft Loux was expected to be drafted with the 19th overall pick. Let’s just go with that, OK?
That means Houston probably didn’t know about the torn labrum before the selection. Otherwise they wouldn’t have been projected to pick him, right? Anyway, they soon find out that he has the labrum injury.
This year’s actual 19th overall pick received a $1,305,000 signing bonus. OK, so we’ll use that as the probable amount Loux would have received from Houston if it were him.
So you’re the Houston GM. You drafted Loux with the 19th overall pick and just found out that he has a torn labrum and may need Tommy John in the near future. Are you still willing to pay him $1,305,000?
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on Aug 5, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions
The Tommy John thing is seperate from the Labrum issue, it is even less defensible. Teams knew he had surgery on that elbow, no team who drafted in the first round should be given a pass on drafting him without checking it out. And what Houston actually knew does factor into a mock draft, that is what makes it a mock draft.
If the D Backs didn’t get a pick next year based on this would you be so quick to defend the D Backs? Or would you admit they failed to do the appropriate homework? Is your opinion that they did nothing wrong based upon the act the D Backs didn’t really lose anything, only the kid got screwed?
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 7:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Uh, no. By drafting him the D Backs prevented any other team from taking him this year. That is the point of a draft, correct? Your scenario assumes no other team would have drafted him later in the draft (the underlying article strongly suggests that is not the case). At a minimum the D Backs cost him a year of professional baseball. Do you have a pathological reason for needing to absolve the D Backs of screwing this kid over?
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 12:47 AM EDT reply actions
In your hypothetical universe, any other team wanting to draft him in an early round, would also have required a medical and presumably would have found the same torn labrum, etc. They would similarly have passed. All that the D-backs did by picking him this season, is perhaps delaying him from signing with another team for a year.
Do you have a pathological reason for wanting some team – be it the D-backs or anyone else – to give millions of dollars to a guy with a busted arm? Are you Loux’s agent or something?
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Frayed does not equal torn, words have meanings. And didn’t the underlying article say a Rangers doctor would have cleared him? So the D Backs decision was not of such an obvious nautre. And yes a year for a professional athlete means nothing.
It isn’t a hypothetical universe, other teams have requested predraft phyicals, see the link above. You wrote an article wih a lousy analogy and you can’t support you opinion that the D Backs didn’t screw this kid over. You are a homer of the worst kind.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 1:36 AM EDT reply actions
The underlying article
says a Rangers doctor said he can pitch right now, but will need surgery down the road.
Mr. Science Boy
by DbacksSkins on Aug 5, 2010 2:12 AM EDT up reply actions
No, the Rangers doctor said he was fit to pitch. Only the D Backs source said surgery. Nice reading fail from the guy throwing out reading comprehension blasts. I weep for you, clearly you have D Backs Stockholm Syndrome.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 2:21 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL
You can’t even tell the difference between “Jim McLennan” and “DbacksSkins”? What was that about “reading fail”? Oops. Would you now like another bullet for your other foot, Career Sgt. Zen?
Sure, other teams have very occasionally requested predraft physicals – you found one example, big whoop. It doesn’t make it standard practice. The D-backs did nothing different from what every other team does, year in and year out – not every prospect drafted is signed, for a myriad of reasons. So again, why do you have such a massive complex about Loux?
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Other teams failing to do appropriate homework does not excuse the D Backs failure. They had the opprotunity to look into his medical history, I see no evidence they did even though they knew about his history of bone chips. Relying on industry standard to defend such a complete failure, is really no defense. It is the same as a child who gets caught doing something bad and trys to deflect blame by saying everyone else is doing it to. Admit it, th D Backs could have done their homework but didn’t and it cost this kid a hug opprotunity.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
So why pick on the D-backs?
Finally. You admit that the Diamondbacks followed absolutely standard practice. And doing this is now their fault, because…?
All you’ve offered as far as a suggestion to improve the system is some byzantine scheme where the top 150 potential draftees have to submit to vast numbers of medicals from any franchise with an interest in them – which would, of course, completely expose each team’s drafting strategy to their competitors. You really haven’t thought this through at all, have you?
All the evidence suggests, Loux is damaged goods, and is not worth $2 million. End of story.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
You seriously can’t be this bad a writer, can you? I said relying on that defense is no defense, I didn’t say it was industry standard practice. There is a difference, you hack. Other teams have asked for predraft physicals, undisputed. The D Backs had reason to at least inquire into his health, as he had previous surgery on his elbow … or do they not have to even bother to look even after knowing of a previous surgery because they can walk away after they draft him leaving the kid high and dry? They may be able to but that doesn’t make it right.
The D Backs fell down on the job, period. They drafted Loux, he didn’t draft them. By drafting him they cost him the opportunity to play in another organization this year.
A Byzantine process, followed in both the NFL and the NBA … are you this stupid in real life or just playing devils advocate on the internet?
All the evidence suggests the D Backs didn’t do their homework, drafted Loux and refused to sign him … he got screwed and the D Backs lose nothing in the process.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Sigh...
You provided ONE example, from SEVERAL years ago, of this happening. The store there even says,
You are making claims without any backing. It is not standard procedure to have a pre-draft physical. Case closed. You lose."It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I will explain this slowly
ONE does not equal SEVERAL. The article was from 2009, you hack.
I never said it was standard procedure, try reading again. You have yet to state a single reasonable argument as to how the D Backs didn’t screw this kid over. If you want to take your ball and go home and cry, do it but don’t smugly assume you won anything you half wit.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Um...
firstly, I haven’t said anything about reading comprehension. Secondly, I don’t know how I have “D Backs Stockholm Syndrome”. Thirdly, you’re attacking me for absolutely no reason whatsoever, besides the fact that you obviously despise the Dbacks for some reason. Fourthly, you apparently don’t know much about baseball. and don’t know much about labrum tears.
From here, a famous article about this condition.
Dude’s got a labrum tear. That’s very, very, VERY bad news for a pitcher.
From the Passan article:
Okay, so the kid admits that he DOES have a labrum tear, but mitigates that admission by saying “but this other anonymous guy says I’m ‘fit to pitch’.”
I feel bad for Barret Loux. I really do. I’m sorry that the kid’s dreams were crushed. But the Diamondbacks organization is not a charity. It’s a business, and they have to do the best thing they can for their org, and to protect their investments. A torn labrum isn’t something they could’ve known about beforehand, and it’s not like they’re to blame for it.
Loux’s best option now is to hope he can get in a year of independent league pitching, prove that his shoulder won’t be a problem, and be signed next year. If that fails, he can, presumably, finish his college degree and become a productive non-baseball member of society.
Mr. Science Boy
by DbacksSkins on Aug 5, 2010 2:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
There you go, you finally got it. The D Backs aren’t a charity, correct. Loux appears to have injuries. The Dbacks should have done their homework, period. They didn’t and their failure screwed this kid over. Any attempt to absolve the D Backs is an act of blind loyalty to an organization who screwed up.
You’ll notice the article above contains no compassion for the kid, just a defense of the D Backs failure.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
I repeat: Industry. Standard. Practice.
So where’s your hate for the other 29 teams too who follow the same processes, and would have done (and do) exactly the same thing every year? Hate the game if you want (though your suggestions to fix it have been laughably poorly constructed), don’t hate the players…
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions
The other 29 teams did not draft Loux, the D Backs did. However, if the other 29 teams also drafted Loux and refused to sign him based upon something they could have discovered predraft then I expand my hate to them too. Oh? They didn’t? Nice straw man. You can’t absolve The D Backs failure by expanding the argument, beyond the facts of the Loux case. They knew he had a elbow problem before … should have been a red flag to at least ask for a physical and records predraft. It also is not industry standard practice not to do any predraft physical evaluation, I have already provided a link of the Rangers asking for a predraft physical, LAST YEAR.
You have not dealt with the substance of my arguments so to call them “laughably poorly constructed” is astounding. Also, you cant repeat what you haven’t said previously.
However, on the immediate topic, you are of course entitled to your ignorant, uninformed, myopic, retarded opinion. It is just unfortunate that you would choose to display your ignorance in such a public manner. Seriously, you want to absolve the D Backs of any wrong doing because they didn’t bother to try and perform their due diligence.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Your argument was already destroyed above
Hmm… Who should I believe with regard to what constitutes standard practice in the baseball draft? The Rangers General Manager or “Career Sgt. Zim”?
Really, we’ve all made more difficult decisions than that.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Learn what destroyed means.
Jim do you posses an IQ in the range of a normal human?
Unusual or no, when a pitcher has a HISTORY medical problems in his throwing arms you should check it out. The Rangers did, LAST YEAR.
STANDARD PRACTICE IS NOT A DEFENSE. Repeat after me: just because Johnny and Billy smoke crack doesn’t mean it is acceptable for you to smoke crack too.
Please explain why the D Backs are exempt from having to perform due diligence before locking up a kids rights for a year. I’ll wait for your flimsy response demonstrating a poor understanding of the English language.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions
You really haven't got a clue, have you?
Do you even know what “due diligence” means? The medical the Diamondbacks performed, after drafting Loux, and before agreeing to a contract with him? That’s due diligence. Performing the speculative pre-draft medical you demand, particularly on a completely separate part of his body from one which had troubled Loux previously not = due diligence, except in your tiny little mind.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I know what it means do you? They should have check him out BEFORE DRAFTING HIM. Doing it after they drafted Loux screwed him. And it isn’t speculative to ask for a physical when there is a history of problems any more than it is speculative to ask a mechanic to check out a used car with a rebuilt engine.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
You still don't get it
That’s what got him the very rare example of a pre-draft medical. Show me anything like that in Loux’s history?
I am, however, deeply amused you berated me for my house metaphor, and yet are now flinging hopelessly invalid “used car” ones out there. What’s the line? Oh, yeah… “Please, tell me you are not any sort of a teacher in your day job. The thought of you shaping young minds frightens me.”
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
He had surgery to remove bone chips from his elbow, and now one of the things they found was an elbow problem, no?
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Damn block qoute, here it is again.
He had surgery to remove bone chips from his elbow, and now one of the things they found was an elbow problem, no?
Hmmm, prior surgery on the elbow last year, yeah no reason to check him out boys, no history there.
Please explain how it is hopelessly invalid. The D Backs drafted a pitcher with surgically repaired elbow but didn’t have it checked out predraft. In my analogy, drafting him is tantamount to purchase because no one else can sign him – he is effectively locked up for a year. Your previous analogy omitted that aspect of the draft.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Bone chips not = Tommy John and a torn labrum
Pitchers get bone chips removed all the time – Johan Santana, Manny Corpas, etc. – and it doesn’t derail their careers. You also missed the part in Passan’s story that said, “The MRI from his bone-chip surgery was reportedly clean.” It doesn’t specify when that was taken, but there seems to have been no reason, based on prior medical history, not to draft him.
To extend your used car metaphor, this was like having the engine checked out and getting a clean bill of health – only for the transmission to fall out on the test-drive.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention
That he pitched another 96 innings while putting up a 2.60 ERA after that surgery. There wasn’t any indication that there were red flags on the horizon. The simple fact that almost every mock draft was moving him up higher each day prior to the draft is enough evidence that the injury was something none of us were expecting.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on Aug 5, 2010 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Having surgery alone should be enough to be worth of a look, no? If not why even have a post draft presigning physical?
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 5:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I can't speak for the team
Seeing as I really have no idea how pre-draft physicals work, or the resources that they’ll need, or even the difficulty in acquiring permission to do so, but like I said, there were no indications that it would be necessary. You can point the finger at the D-backs if you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that Loux still has a torn labrum. Like Jim said earlier, does it matter at this point?
If they did a pre-draft physical than he simply wouldn’t have been drafted. We end up with the same outcome.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on Aug 5, 2010 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Actually, if the D Backs dont draft we dont end up with the same outcome. That is the point. You assume another team may not have taken a chance on him, drafted and signed him with his injury.
And prior surgery should be an indication to take a closer look. If not there was no indication they should have made him go through a physical before signing him either, right? If it was right to give him one before signign, they should have done it before drafting him.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Two different things
Teams don’t know they’re going to get a player, until they have drafted them.
To extend your used car metaphor, you know you’ll get A car, but there’s 30 possibilities on the lot. Do you get a mechanic to examine each one in depth, or just kick the tires and wait until you get to pick, then examine that one more closely?
Common sense provides the answer there.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
They have a pretty good idea narrowed to a few guys, especially when picking number 6. With a history of throwing arm surgery why shouldn’t they have checked him out? If the car fax says one of the 5 or 6 cars you are looking at had an engine rebuild you would have it checked out before making it your top choice?
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions
No, he has aproblem on the SAME ELBOW.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 5:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The labrum
is a shoulder issue, not an elbow issue.
Mr. Science Boy
by DbacksSkins on Aug 5, 2010 6:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes but they are both problems on his throwing arm. If he had no history of problems on that arm, I would agree with you but he did. You cant ignore that … I guess the D Backs did but that was a dreadful decision.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Great Discussion
really enjoying it, since i’m not really sure how i feel about it either. it’s terrible that loux is in this situation, but as a neutral observer, i have to agree that it’s crazy to expect the dbacks to pony up millions of dollars in this situation out of pity.
at the risk of being called ignorant and uninformed, tho, i do have one question for zim: have you thought at all of the logistics of what you are saying? basically, in order to give all the physicals you claim are necessary, the top 20 teams in the draft would probably have to perform physicals on 20 players (and that’s estimating conservatively).
AND that means that each of those 20 players would have to subject themselves to AT LEAST 20 physicals by each teams’ doctors.
AND those physicals couldn’t just be turn-right-and-cough deals: in order to detect something like a frayed labrum, mri’s or x-rays would be required.
leaving aside the question of whether teams should give full physicals to 20 different people who may or may not ever play for them, do you REALLY think a single player would subject themselves to 20 mri’s?
by TexStros on Aug 5, 2010 1:10 PM EDT reply actions
Logitstics arent an issue
Teams should not be given a pass on not evaluating a players health before drafting him. The D Backs shouldn’t be absolved of their failure here. The draft is a unilateral action by the team which locks up a player, if the teams changes their mind after the fact the player is SOL. It is particularly sad when the decision is made based upon information that could have been discovered prior to the draft with a modicum of effort. Particularly when a player, like Loux, has a previous surgery on his throwing arm – that should be an indication you should check the player out. The article gives the D Backs a giant pass and has no sympathy for Loux, the author even equates playing pro-ball with winning the lottery. As if the training and dedication it take to get the pros is the same as buying a ticket and wining through mathematical happen stance.
The logistics issue is ridiculous, the NFL and NBA pull it off before the draft. Are baseball teams less competent in their ability to have a realistic idea of who they should look at and fully evaulate them before they make a selection? Teams do not need to physically evaluate every single player on the board but they have a narrowed of idea of who they might take and they should evaluate those players. Especially first round selections with a history of surgery.
I don’t expect the D Backs to give this guy millions of dollars, that would not be smart. But they had reason and opportunity to inquire into his health BEFORE they drafted him, by not doing so they screwed him and cost him at least a year of pro-ball. The issue is not the reasonableness of the D Backs refusal to sign him, it is their failure to check him out before drafting him screwed the poor kid.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions
You keep acting like this is solely about the elbow
And you ignore the tear in the labrum that no one saw until the MRI after the draft.
"It's a fez. I'm wearing a fez now. Fezes are cool."
by kishi on Aug 5, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
The elbow should have been a sign to check him out … they didn’t. They could have asked for a predraft physical, they didn’t. They could have asked for medical records they didn’t. You keep acting like they could and shouldn’t have bothered to check him out.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
So
Your stance is that one medical issue is a sign that he should have been checked for another, unrelated problem.
"It's a fez. I'm wearing a fez now. Fezes are cool."
by kishi on Aug 5, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions
The first problem was on his throwing arm. Are you saying with that history they shouldn’t have checked it out first? A pitchers throwing arm is important, right?
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh
Then you’re saying they should have given him a medical exam and then not drafted him. Which would have led to the same result for him, possibly even the same dance, because I don’t see any news about other teams having given him a medical evaluation pre-draft, and he was expected to go in the first round. So there’s a really good chance that, had the DBacks taken a pass on him, he would have gone a few picks later, the White Sox, As, Astros, or some other team would have given him a MRI, seen the arm and and decided not to sign him.
Because pre-draft medical exams are not standard practice in baseball.
"It's a fez. I'm wearing a fez now. Fezes are cool."
by kishi on Aug 6, 2010 12:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, they should have given him a predraft physical. If the D Backs didn’t draft him, this dance doesn’t happen … or does that escape you somehow? Who knows what other teams would have done or what they did, we will never know because the D Backs drafted and asked questions later. If the D Backs didn’t get a compensatory pick in exchange would you be so quick to defend their actions?
You didn’t think they were allowed before, now you will opine on standard practice? Intriguing, not credible but intriguing. Besides a bad standard practice is not a defense to failing to do you homework.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 6, 2010 1:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Wait
I’m willling to accept that I was mistaken in my previous belief, and now have been corrected, and you’re going to give me crap over that? Seriously?
"It's a fez. I'm wearing a fez now. Fezes are cool."
by kishi on Aug 6, 2010 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
incidentally
i don’t think even jeff passan (the author of the yahoo article that started this whole discussion) is blaming the dbacks for not being aware of the full extent of his apparent injuries before drafting him. wasn’t the main point of his article that the current system, in which a team is better off offering no contract to a potentially injured player, needs to be changed?
in fact, the issue of whether the dbacks should have checked him out first seems to be irrelevant:
Maybe they are. Maybe they aren’t. That isn’t the point. As long as compensation picks remain – as long as kids like Barret Loux are hung out to dry when hurt – the draft will be irrevocably broken. It’s time to fix it.
the ONLY person, anywhere, blaming the dbacks for not checking loux out first is zim.
by TexStros on Aug 5, 2010 3:29 PM EDT reply actions
I’ll agree that the point of his article is the kid was victim. This article disagrees with that, for reasons that defy logic. However, I think the D Backs failure to check him out is relevant – their failure cost this kid and they get to walk away with no real harm and a compensatory pick next year. Loux got screwed. Most people, Jim aside, feel bad for him. The system does need to be changed, but teams also need to do their homework predraft.
My point is that based on the Passan article it appears that other teams may have signed him (see the part about the Rangers team doc saying he would have cleared him to pitch). Instead, the D Backs draft him, preventing him from going somewhere else for a year and possible costing him his college eligibility because he asked the MLBPA for help. I really cant see how the D Backs are blameless for what happened here.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
the dbacks didn’t check him out because that’s not what mlb teams do before the draft. you say that’s what they do in the nba and nfl. fine, this isn’t that tho – this is mlb, and they don’t do that in the mlb draft.
we all agree that loux is getting the shaft here. the only question is, who’s giving it to him?
i don’t understand how you can be so pissed at the dbacks over this, if no mlb teams run full physicals on players before they’ve been drafted. it could just as easily have been the astros or dodgers or any other team.
if you wanna be mad, be like passan and be mad at the system. or be mad at mlb in general for not insisting on pre-draft physicals for all players. singling out the dbacks for a league-wide practice doesn’t make any sense.
by TexStros on Aug 5, 2010 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions
The issue is they could have checked him out, they weren’t prevented from asking for a physical. Other teams have done it when they had reason to be concerned, the D Backs knew he had a history of arm problems. Why shouldn’t they also have checked him out?
And we don’t all agree the kid is getting the shaft; Scott Howard, you and I agree – Jim does not. Jim said "While I’ve no doubt he’s disappointed by this, it hardly makes him a “victim,” to have had his golden ticket turned to ashes by an MRI." Jim doesn’t think the kid got screwed or that the D Backs have any culpability for it.
Seasons of Discontent isn't dead ... it is just resting.
by Career Sgt. Zim on Aug 5, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I just feel fucking bad for the kid
Plus I’m a little surprised that MLB teams don’t regularly do medical examinations of guys they are thinking of picking in the Top 10 (or first round).
Someone educate me on the rules about teams flying in prospects to work them out. I would assume it’s much different than the NBA or NFL since college players are in-season during the draft while high school players would probably face amateurism issues.
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Aug 5, 2010 3:46 PM EDT reply actions
Except
Barret Loux’s projection originally ranged from the late first round to the middle of the second round.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on Aug 5, 2010 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions
But the D-Backs obviously liked him at 6.
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Aug 5, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
If it's industry standard practice
As Jim so emphatically mentions over and over…then it’s a really stupid business practice. Not just for the D-Backs but for major league baseball.
The D-Backs (or insert any major league team in a similar situation) are lucky that the compensation rule exists otherwise they’d look really fucking stupid.
RIP Seasons of Discontent
by Scott Howard on Aug 5, 2010 7:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps it's the compensation pick
That gave them the freedom to “draft first and ask questions later”? Because they can then take a gamble on someone like Loux – many people were surprised he went in the first round at all, never mind at #6. If it doesn’t work out, never mind, because they’ll get another pick next year.
"It's not the despair, Laura. I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand." -- Brian Stimpson
by Jim McLennan on Aug 5, 2010 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Eh
I read your first post incorrectly. I thought you were saying MLB should require the top ten projected players and yadda, yadda… Stupid me.
Wear your own fur.
by Marc Fournier on Aug 5, 2010 7:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Not The Whole Story
Jim, you are making the assumption that the D-Backs wanted to sign Loux in good faith until the physical. D-back management was deeply divided over that pick, and the GM vetoed the wishes of the scouting org. and took Loux. Due in part to this decision, the GM was fired shortly after the draft and the new mgmt didn’t want Loux.
Long before an agreement and the so-called failed physical, the Loux family made the trip to a D-Backs game where most 1st rounders are invited onto the field for warm-ups and then wined and dined in the owners luxury box. The Loux family was snubbed by the D-Backs…nobody met them at the stadium, they were left tickets in general seating and not contacted by D-Backs officials all night. They were snubbed…before the physical.
Yes, there is a difference of opinion with Loux’s physical status. Yes, he had bone chips removed in summer 2009 but he pitched without restrictions and didn’t miss a start all season where he was an all-American at Texas A&M. He worked out this offseason with no pain and no restrictions, and he’s now pitching in Cape Cod with no pain and no restrictions.
Loux’s training history at Texas A&M was available to MLB teams and several took advantage of this information. The D-Backs were not one of those teams. The fact is, the new D-Backs GM didn’t like his predecessor’s pick and made the decision to secure his compensatory pick in the 2011 draft.
Loux was projected to be a late 1st rounder and at a minimum he would have received $1 million and he would be on the fast track to the MLB. The D-Backs had buyer’s remorse and used a stupid MLB draft rule to get a “do-over” and in the process did not negotiate in good faith as they are obligated to do.
Hop
by HopWebsider on Aug 7, 2010 1:43 AM EDT reply actions
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