Andy Pettitte Is Retiring; Does He Belong In The Hall Of Fame?

And it’s not particularly close. I think both Mussina (74.8 rWAR) and Kevin Brown (64.8) have significantly better cases than Pettite (50.2). I think Brown is a borderline candidate, even if he’s often glossed over (I’d probably lean no on him), and I think Moose is a surefire yes.

Interestingly enough, Rivera (52.9) has more rWAR than Pettite.

I’ve always wondered why post-season stats are ignored(or at least are supposed to be ignored) while choosing Hall of Famers. Does it come from the practice of discounting (and rightly so) post-season stats for yearly awards like MVP and Cy Young? I see no reason why they shouldn’t count for assessing the career stats.

Would we be having this conversation if Pettite weren’t a Yankee, even if he somehow racked up the same number of wins? I don’t think so. I think Pettite gets credit he doesn’t deserve because the media has bought into the notion that playing for the Yankees requires some kind of extra magical ability.

As has been previously mentioned, there are better (recent) pitchers who didn’t come close to the HOF. Pettite may get in, but he doesn’t deserve it.

Andy is a good pitcher, but he is certainly not Hall of Fame material at least not unless a ballot comes up with basically no other potential candidates. He was good for a number of years, but never great. 0 Cy Youngs or other rewards of note (1 ALCS). 2 20+ win seasons separated by 6 years. Perhaps his best season was 05 for the Astros with 17 wins. That is probably a 22 win season if he was with New York. In an era that is seeing increasing use of sabremetrics, the most basic of these, WHIP, is not in his favor at all. A 1.3 career average certainly is good, but not Hall worthy. And it isn’t like that number ballooned thanks to late career slumps as he was always remarably consistent in that area except for, again, his 05 season with a 1.03. So i guess if you are a Yanks fan or someone who enjoys seeing the HoF watered down with players that you would never consider top tier in the sport while they were actually playing, then sure, Pettite is Hall material. But his lack of career, non-team related, achievements and mediocre non-win related stats makes me feel like he isn’t worth of the Hall.

Not to mention the whole PED stuff. If the voters could ever get past that there are certainly a number of players in line ahead of him for the Hall.

Via FanGraphs:

Pettitte: 16 seasons, 66.9 WAR
Brown: 19 seasons: 77.2 WAR

Seasons over five WAR:

Pettitte: 4
Brown: 7

Does Pettitte belong in the Hall of Fame? Certainly not before Kevin Brown, and I don’t even like Brown.

should be the best, or among the best at their position during their time. there’s a number of guys who were better than he was in the 90s and earlier part of this decade: Maddux, Wells, Mussina, Brown, the Unit, Pedro, Schilling, Halladay (only started 3 seasons later than Pettite), Clemens etc. all deserve entry before he does. That doesn’t mean he never makes it, but certainly not anytime soon.

i think it’s premature to discuss pettitte getting into the HoF not because he won’t even appear on the ballot for 5 years. but because mussina is/was the HoF pitcher from those yankee teams. he was the better pitcher over his career plain and simple. unfortunately mr. almost will probably also almost get into the HoF, but just miss.

Jack Morris. He’s got excellent traditional stats, like wins and world series rings. Yet at a more than superficial glance they both only have the careers of very good players. They get bumps from playing with good teams and wouldn’t even get looked at if they spent the majority of their career average teams.

If a player doesn’t hit the magical stat markers, even if they modified for the period 275 is likely going to become the new 300 unless pitchers start refusing to leave games again, then they need to have been dominate and memorable during their period in the game.

For pitchers I personally need to feel like they weren’t just a product of the team they were on. Pettitte had only two years where he had a ERA under 3.00 and most of the time he was near 4.00

To me that says he was a middle of the rotation arm that got a lot of wins because of the teams he was on.

If he were with the Pirates during that same period he’d likely be a near .500 pitcher and somewhat forgettable.

The other thing I would use is if he’d pass the must watch test. I think he fails this miserably for the majority of his time in the league.

There are more worthy players that have fallen off the ballot, such as Kevin Brown. With 240 wins and a near 4.00 career ERA and no sign of real dominance over a long period Pettitte just isn’t worthy of a spot in the Hall of Fame.

EVERYBODY has seem to have forgotten that he was caught cheating. I’m sorry but if Mark McGwire can’t get a pass, what makes you think ANdy Pettite can?

Is that the debate takes place 5 years after retirement. Lets just put this in the vault until 2015 and let the man have his press conference (and possible return to the Yankees) first.

I think Andy Pettitte falls short, although I was hoping he’d pitch for a couple more seasons to really make the choice difficult. He was a very good pitcher for a long time, and that is special unto itself, but he was never really a great pitcher, and I do like HOFers to have at least touched greatness for a bit.

Yet his 117 ERA+ is not exactly something to ignore. I think for years, because he was on the Yankees and because he was blessed with good teams behind him, the reaction in the sabermetric community was to try and talk down Pettitte’s accomplishments. As time has gone on, I have done a 180, and I usually find myself talking up Petttitte’s accomplishments. He was born into MLB in the AL, right as the American League because the dominant league. He did his pitching right at the start of the steroid era, in the DH league and in the AL East. His higher ERA doesn’t bother me because of all that. Even his postseason record gets talked down because it’s used as an example that he’s not a big-game pitcher, simply putting up the same ERA in the postseason as he does during the regular season. Yet that to me is an accomplishment, since he’s doing that against a much higher level of competition. His postseason ERA is much better than his regular season when looked at in context. Yet, just as in the regular season he falls short of greatness, he falls just short also in the postseason, not approaching the Gibson or Schilling level of total dominance.

I wish Pettitte had pitched a few more seasons, got up into the 270 win range, which coupled with his postseason wins, he’d pass by the 300 total win mark. It would make the choice much more difficult, and if elected, he would have removed the nonsense that many BBWAA members have of never voting for a known PED user. Pettitte’s the type of person who could crack through that mental barrier.

Pettitte’s 38. I remember reading quotes from a few scouts last year who said he could easily see Pettitte remaining effective into his 40s, similar to a Moyer. If so, we can’t really assume that Pettitte won’t get tired of being at home and make a comeback next year. He certainly wouldn’t be the first professional athlete who realizes his whole self-worth and identity is built around being an athlete. As as much fun as being around the kids sounds, they can also drive a man crazy! I don’t think it’s likely he’ll come back, but I wouldn’t be surprised. I’m sure someone will ask that very question during tomorrow’s press conference.

No disrespect to Andy Pettite, but being a very good pitcher who came through a ton in the playoffs (given extraordinary opportunity to do so) doesn’t make him a hall of famer. Terrific player. Memorable player. Player who did a ton to earn his rings. Still not at that level, even if he’s better than a couple of guys in the Hall.

Andy was a very good pitcher, and at times great, but a level or two away from HOF calibre. He wont make the Hall of Fame, but maybe the www.notinhalloffame.com baseball list when he is eligible. That is likely as good as it well get for Pettitte.

because he’s been one of the top 10 pitchers in the history of baseball’s most successful franchise. The Yankees have always leaned more extensively on hitting, and Pettitte is almost certainly one of the top 10 most successful pitchers with 5 rings, 1800 Ks, and over 200 wins for the franchise.

At least not through the BBWAA voting. Petitte’s in the same boat as Posada and Bernie Williams. They’ll get some support, stay on the ballot, but never come particularly close to election. No shame in this.

No way. Again, we’re back to the HoRG (Hall of Really Good). He is behind Kevin Brown, David Cone and Mike Mussina, and I am not sure any of them should be in.

1.36 career WHIP = HoF?
Only three seasons with a WAR >5

No way. Or did I already say that?

K. I’m done.

Have to remember in looking at pitchers like Pettitte or Mussina, the effect of spending so much time in the AL East. It has to be close to 1.00 in ERA looking at Pedro and Randy Johnson. Pettitte himself had an ERA 0.50 lower in Houston, and that coincided with with such severe elbow trouble he needed surgery. Knock 0.50-1.00 in ERA off those guys’ records, and they look pretty darn good. Moose definitely should go in. Andy’s on the bubble.

not. A full run better than the rest of baseball? Wow, you’d think that no other divisions matter. Or we could just look at his WAR and realize, again, he belongs in the Hall of Really Good pitchers.

One might forget that the 3 of the last 6, 4 of the last 8, and 5 of the last 10 World Series winners have come from the NL. Under what conditions is Andy Pettitte a Hall of Famer? He won a LOT of games for a really good team, some great teams during his tenure. Hopefully, he’ll go the way of Bernie Williams, Don Mattingly, et al.

LordD99 makes some fair observations, but he reaches the same conclusion. Surely, Rob, you’ll eventually agree.

Glad you are here. Nice to read you regularly away from the WWL.

when asked about the HOF, he actually pointed out that his postseason and regular season numbers were essentially the same, his numbers added up nicely because he played with a lot of great teams, and he didn’t feel like the game was as easy for him as for guys he feels are sure HOFers. In ten years, I don’t think he’ll be one of those guys with borderline cases whining about how he hasn’t been inducted into the HOF yet. No question in my mind he definitely had a better career than Jack Morris though.