Sure, Derrick Rose is a candidate for NBA MVP. But if he is, so are Russell Westbrook and many, many more.
Mar 24, 2011 - No one ought to feel entitled to tell others who they ought to consider an NBA MVP. Consideration and contemplation are infinite resources, and frankly, too many voters -- in politics, for basketball awards, in American Idol -- vote with their hearts instead of their heads. Consideration of a great many candidates and arguments is a good thing. If we all spent 10 minutes looking over the restaurant menu instead of 10 seconds, wiser decisions would be made.*
So, no longer will I tell everyone I know that Derrick Rose is not a legitimate NBA MVP candidate. Instead, I will present the argument that if you consider Derrick Rose a legitimate NBA MVP candidate -- or even, as some suggest, the indisputable NBA MVP -- you ought to also consider no fewer than a dozen (yes, 12) other players.
One such player is a guard almost never mentioned in MVP talk: Russell Westbrook. Let's consider Rose, and consider Westbrook, and contemplate.
The basic per-game statistics for Rose and Westbrook are seriously similar. Rose averages 24.9 points and 7.8 assists per game; Westbrook is at 22.2 and 8.3. Each shoots 44 percent from the floor and a touch below average -- 34 percent for Rose, 33 percent for Westbrook -- from long-range. Westbrook draws almost eight free throws a game and shoots them quite well; Rose draws seven FTs on average, and shoots them quite well. Westbrook averages 4.6 rebounds per game; Rose, 4.2. Westbrook gives up 3.9 turnovers, Rose 3.4. Just under two steals for Westbrook, just more than one for Rose.
The similarities extend to advanced metrics. The guards' True Shooting percentages -- that measure total shooting efficiency, or points per shooting possession in percentage form -- are virtually identical at just below average. They manage that efficiency at high, almost identical 32-percent usage rates. Westbrook's assist rate is somewhat higher; Rose's turnover rate is somewhat lower. PER? Rose is 23.3, Westbrook 23.7. But really, you'd have trouble tracking down more similar comparisons.
Rose's team is really, really good -- 51-19, tops in the Eastern Conference. Westbrook's team happens to be really good too, at 46-24. Oklahoma City is virtually guaranteed home court advantage in the first-round of the West playoffs, no small feat. Both are team leaders. Rose has a less star-studded supporting cast, though Luol Deng is an All-Defense contender, and Carlos Boozer or Joakim Noah (or maybe both) would have been an All-Stars if not for long injury absences in the first half of the season. Westbrook has, of course, Kevin Durant ... and no other teammate that will ever likely make even an All-Star All-Snub team.
The Bulls are superior defensively, but lineup data suggests Rose's defensive impact may be minimal -- the Chicago defense improves when C.J. Watson replaces Rose, for example. The Thunder's defense (excellent a year ago) is middling; Westbrook has a terrific defensive reputation, but the data this season isn't strong. I sincerely doubt anyone would hold that if you swapped Westbrook and Rose, though, Chicago's defense would fall off. It wouldn't.
So there we are. All told, Rose likely has the slimmest of edges over Westbrook based on the fact he has played more minutes and, given the turnover comparison, a touch more efficient. But it's incredibly close, and if you're willing to strongly consider Rose for the award, you've also got to consider Westbrook. And if you consider Rose and Westbrook, you've got to consider superior producers LeBron James, Dwight Howard, Dwayne Wade, Dirk Nowitzki ... heck, Durant. Kevin Love is as productive as Rose. Why not him? Where would the Wolves be without Kevin Love? Worst team ever? Kobe Bryant. Zach Randolph. Pau Gasol. Amar'e Stoudemire. All of these players compare to Rose in terms of production; many of them compare favorably.
If you're handing your support to Rose without considering Westbrook and the others strongly, know that you're not awarding the Most Valuable Player trophy, you're awarding a kindergarten gold star for a totally awesome story or the Man Booker prize or something. Awarding MVP trophies based on warm fuzzies should be reserved for youth soccer, not the highest levels of sport. If you present the argument that "you can't base the award strictly on stats," I will direct you to the Steve Nash wing of the Basketball Hall of Fame in the year 2055, where a plaque will read:
"Dear basketball fans,
No, we don't know why Steve Nash won two MVP awards as the 20th or so best player of his generation while monsters like Kevin Garnett, Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal only won one each, and Tim Duncan only won two, and Dwyane Wade never won one. Our forensic research suggests that voters became enamored with the entertaining and surprising Phoenix Suns and, worried that their pea-sized brains would forget all about Nash and the Seven Seconds Or Less offense, decided to memorialize the era with not one but two giant bronze trophies. We regret the voters' lack of reason, and as penance present this oversized mural depicting a bayonet-wielding Shaq chasing Mitch Albom through the Fourth Circle of Hell.With embarrassment,
Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame"
It's still possible to get this right, voters and influencers. Let science into your heart! Just say no to Mitch Albom Logic!
***
* I used to wait tables. I would not have encouraged 10-minute menu contemplation sessions in those days. In fact, I would have vigorously discouraged it. By spreading malicious rumors about those who did spend 10 minutes contemplating the menu. See that guy? Knew him in middle school. Used to sell him pogs that were really just the white cardboard from milk jugs. What a maroon!
171 comments
Comments
I find it pretty funny how
people write stories like this and say “watch the Rose fans freak out”, meanwhile, that’s the exact reason it’s written in the first place. Whatever.
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 24, 2011 9:37 AM EDT reply actions 13 recs
Just to follow up on that
I’m a Bulls fan that actually thinks Rose probably shouldn’t win MVP. Although now I think I really want to see it happen just to shut up all the whiny stat guys that are acting like he’s garbage because he’s a candidate.
The guy is 22 years old, absolutely killing it, has his team on top of the Eastern Conference standings, and is a really great kid to boot. Not to mention that countless players and coaches in the league have endorsed him as MVP (I’d say their opinion is a little more valuable). Yet everyone in the blogosphere wants to rip him apart. It’s getting old.
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 24, 2011 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Couldn't agree more.
Is Lebron more statistically deserving? Probably. Unfortunately, just like in the 90s, when writes couldn’t/wouldn’t give MJ the MVP every season (and don’t even try and argue he wasnt the Most Valuable Player for any full season of the 90s that he played, you’ll look silly) the writers now don’t want to give it to Lebron every year.
Personally I’d give it to Rose, Howard of Nowitzki. Any of the three is fine with me.
by Hawkeyes on Mar 24, 2011 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
I still think its unfair to dismiss the voters like that. There are legitimate reasons why Lebron shouldn’t be MVP. Like the Heat without him or Bosh (with one of the shortest teams in the league with no bench) winning 40+ games off D-Wades back.
D Wade should really hamper Lebrons votes because to me even if he is more valuable than Wade its still too close. People maybe split on that.
Also the Heat not being able to close out games and beat worthy opponents consistently.
"Well you're giving me the opportunity to agree with Bill Plaschke and Marriotti, I'm gonna pass" - Tim Cowlishaw
by Camry on Mar 24, 2011 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I think ...
… that if you use a statistical bent, there’s no question that LeBron has been better than Wade. Just look at the games each missed.
Also remember that last year’s Heat team had some better parts than this team minus LeBron and Bosh. J.O. and Haslem were outstanding on defense, Beasley was a solid No. 2 scorer.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 25, 2011 7:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
lol
you shouldn’t defend yourself.
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 25, 2011 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions
You're sooooo stretching there.
If Beasley is a solid two, and you said yourself Love is as productive as Rose, why are the Wolves so terrible? Are they any different than the Bulls with an ultra productive star and an offensively competent second guy?
You must have me confused with someone else, I have never been to Chicago.
[whispers] I sexually assaulted Scottie Pippen in 1997.
by DocPepper on Mar 28, 2011 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions
The reason for this column
… is that he is the overwhelming favorite for the award, and I think there’s a pretty strong case for LeBron, Howard and maybe even Nowitzki over Rose. I don’t think Rose is garbage, just as I don’t think Westbrook is garbage. These are among the very best players in the league. I feel that LeBron and Dwight have been more valuable this season.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 25, 2011 7:49 AM EDT up reply actions 3 recs
Then you're better served building strong cases for the others
then making dumb comparisons with Westbrook without doing all of your homework.
Road to the Number 1 Seed Assassination Missions:
Kings: Mission Accomplished. Bulls dominant, Knicks useless. Tied with Boston.
Hawks: Mission Accomplished. Be afraid, league. Be very afraid. 1/2 game up on Boston again.
Grizzlies:
Bucks:
Congratulations to the Central Division Champions: The Chicago Bulls!
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Mar 25, 2011 9:14 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Homework done, man
Really? I didn’t do my homework for this piece? C’mon. You can disagree without being ridiculous.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Point of order
Never wrote “watch the Rose fans freak out.” I actually wrote it because of SVG’s comments about the media having made up its mind. I’m trying to challenge the conventional wisdom, conventional wisdom I think is wrong.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 25, 2011 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Except conventional wisdom is for LeBron of Howard to win.
It is quite remarkable that Rose is even earning attention. The league won’t say it, but the award isn’t given to a guy until he’s paid his dues in the league. Rose getting attention now is really unconventional.
You must have me confused with someone else, I have never been to Chicago.
[whispers] I sexually assaulted Scottie Pippen in 1997.
by DocPepper on Mar 28, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Also, just to prove you're guilty of the same laziness you're accusing others of:
Rose’s season this year is actually pretty comparable to most of the seasons Kobe’s put up in his career. And it’s much better than anything he put up in his first three years.
Now, I’M not saying Derrick Rose is as good as Kobe Bryant, but if you wanna go purely by numbers, I would think Rose projects to have a similar career. Maybe 10 years from now, you can write another phony letter to future NBA fans apologizing that Rose only has one award also
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 24, 2011 10:05 AM EDT reply actions 7 recs
You can't say it's "much better" than anything kobe put up in his first three years
Because in case you forgot, Kobe came off the bench his first two years, and his third year was the lockout-shortened year where teams played the dreaded back to back to back and the “5 games in 6 nights.” Their seasons are not comparable.
You’re guilty of that laziness, not Tom Ziller
by doubleteapot on Mar 24, 2011 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What's your point?
Kobe came off the bench because he wasn’t that good then, which is the whole point he’s trying to make. And even if you ignore that distinction, Rose was better than Kobe on a per-minute basis. And yes the seasons are comparable, because, even with the back-to-back-to-backs and the 5 games in 6 nights stretches, it was still the NBA. Ignoring that entire set of data because of that is crummy analysis. And besides, you can’t actually say that Kobe’s numbers were negatively affected by that because the competition had to deal with the same thing.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 24, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions 9 recs
^^^This
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 24, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
"Wasn't very good?"
How about the fact the roster was filled with good players, and the coach didn’t want to play an untested rookie 30+ minutes per game? Some guys play better if they get more minutes, and Kobe didn’t get them because he was a rookie, not because he wasn’t good. Also, you can’t use the whole “the competition had to do the same thing.” If you’re tired, you can’t get lift in your legs to make jump shots, and it’s much harder to drive by a guy, even if he is just as tired. No matter what, you play worse. Playing 50 games in a condensed period is simply not like playing 82 games over an extended period.
by doubleteapot on Mar 24, 2011 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
"If you’re tired, you can’t get lift in your legs to make jump shots, and it’s much harder to drive by a guy, even if he is just as tired"
So you’re telling me that it’s not easier to drive by a guy when he’s winded, as opposed to when he’s fully rested? You can’t honestly believe that.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 24, 2011 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm saying
If you’re tired, you play worse, even if the other person is tired and doesn’t guard you as well. Let me ask you – is it easier to make a driving layup when you are tired or when you are not tired?
And here’s some proof
http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/stats.html
if you looks at that, the lockout season ranks pretty low in FG%, FT%, Offensive rating… you get the point.
It even has the slowest pace out of all the seasons, showing that guys were too tired too initiate the offense early.
It’s not a coincidence. Guys played worse, simple as that. They were tired.
by doubleteapot on Mar 24, 2011 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I'll give you that
But you can hardly ignore that season completely.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 24, 2011 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
If Kobe had won the MVP in his 3rd season, then he also would have an MVP trophy he didn't deserve (like Nash and probably Rose)
Just because Ziller is saying Rose doesn’t deserve the MVP this year (which he doesn’t), that doesn’t mean that Rose won’t actually deserve one later in his career. What’s worse, is that if he improves to the point where he really deserves it, he may get snubbed for the next new story. The MVP voters are really terrible.
by Charlieb on Mar 24, 2011 6:26 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
If you actually
compare their numbers over the course of their first three years and look at it per 36 minutes to adjust for Kobe not starting the first 2 years, Kobe’s actually not THAT much worse than Rose and is actually more efficient from the field, shocking I know. You can look at it on BBR. Their seasons still aren’t comparable for the variety of factors mentioned by DTP and because of the roles and systems being different for their teams. Kobe actually started every game that 3rd year, though so you’re both factually incorrect on that one, about kobe not being good then and about him coming off the bench. Kobe’s PER is definitely lower than Rose’s but again, I point you to different roles and situations for both of them as their game grew. Their sophomore seasons are pretty similar though, which is kinda weird again considering the factors. By most measurements aside from PER though, Kobe was very similarly productive to Rose on a per-minute basis, making up the difference in asts with advantages in blocks, steals, and rebound rate on smaller usage rate
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 24, 2011 8:51 PM EDT up reply actions
You say that like I didn't pore over their BBR pages before posting
I did. And I stand by my statement.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 24, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
sigh...
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 24, 2011 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Look, I get what you're saying
Everything you’re saying is true, but it really boils down to saying that Kobe wasn’t THAT much worse than Rose. He was still worse though. And when you consider that Rose played a lot more minutes and has had far less supporting talent, I’d say it’s pretty inarguable that Rose has had a lot more success in his 1st 3 seasons than Kobe had in his 1st 3 seasons. Of course, Kobe came out of high school, which obviously makes things more difficult, but the point still stands.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 25, 2011 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
It should be Howard's year for MVP.
Howard is far and away the best defensive player in the league. For years, everyone has said that the reason he didn’t win MVP was because he had an unrefined offensive game. Now he’s probably in the top 10 offensive men in terms of impact in the league and the focal point of his team (4th in the ‘stacked’ East) on both ends of the floor. Howard has also shown the same leadership qualities that Rose has this year (both have been fantastic in this regard), but Howard’s leadership has been marred by the media taking every thing he says and running it through their shiny new “Decision/Melo Drama” filter — more concerned about stirring controversy about Howard’s free agency which is still 2 years away.
There’s no player in the league who impacts the game as much as he does when he’s on the floor, on both sides of the floor, no matter the team he’s playing against. Only LeBron garners near that level of influence in a game, he’s got 2 other all-stars as a supporting cast, and his leadership has been MIA.
I’m a huge fan of Rose, but Howard is the leagues Most Valuable Player right now. Howard simply doesn’t have the best “story” to tell when compared to Rose, and when the media chooses the MVP it’s more about narrative than it is about a players’ actual “value”.
by The BBQ Chicken Madness on Mar 24, 2011 10:06 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
His (Howard's) team is also just 'meh' right now.
The Bulls are playing better basketball than the Magic and team performance certainly impacts percepted value.
Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 24, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Take Rose off the Bulls...
and Dwight off the Magic, and then tell me whose team does worse.
Dwight's watching you! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dwight Howard: Strong as an ox, swift as a gazelle.
by GameManager on Mar 26, 2011 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
its a long way down from the top
magic would have maybe the 9th best record in the east the, perhaps 10th, while the bulls would be an 8 or a 7 seed? in other words both team fall about equally in the standings. its just that one would still be in the playoffs, but the impact of that one player would still be about the same id believe…
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 28, 2011 3:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Howard might be the best player in the NBA this season.
Unfortunately, the most “valuable” player is generally the one that carries their team to the top of the regular season and a high playoff see (1 or 2). Put in a vacuum, I agree that Howard is better this season than Rose, but he just hasn’t been able to elevate his team despite elevating himself offensively.
by Hawkeyes on Mar 24, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Who's elevating the Bulls, exactly?
If one looks at the Bulls in any way beyond ESPN’s highlight reel, Thibodeau deserves more credit for their elevation in play/record than Rose.
Rose carries the offense, but it’s Thibodeau’s defense and coaching that carries the team. I bet you could trade Westbrook and Rose straight up and the Bulls would have pretty close to the same record they have now. You can’t say the same for Howard.
by The BBQ Chicken Madness on Mar 24, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
I still say thats unfair to give Thibs all the credit really. Even last year the Bulls were one of the top teams defensively until Noah got injured. (I think the pace and because most of the players only played defense and were scared to get on offense was part of this though)
Its unfair because theres Noah/Asik/Taj Gibson/Deng/Boozer/Brewer/Kurt Thomas. Most of these guys are great defenders and all of them are great rebounders.
"Well you're giving me the opportunity to agree with Bill Plaschke and Marriotti, I'm gonna pass" - Tim Cowlishaw
by Camry on Mar 24, 2011 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
No they weren’t. The Bulls finished middle of the pack defensively last season.
Assuming Noah plays the rest of the season for the Bulls, he’ll STILL have less games than last season. The Bulls STILL improved tremendously on the defensive end, and this is with Noah missing MORE games than last season.
Explanation? Tom Thibodeau.
by 18isGREATERthan72 on Mar 24, 2011 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Bulls were 4th in the league in opposition FG% last year @ 44.2%
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 24, 2011 6:53 PM EDT up reply actions
That's just one metric, and it doesn't really tell the whole story
Big picture, the Bulls are a dramatically better defensive team this year than they were last year.
by Charlieb on Mar 24, 2011 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions
the skiles led bulls were tops in defense as well
and were very well coached by a very good coach. They had some nice offensive power in their guards as well. That team at their absolute best couldnt get over 50 wins in a very weak east. In fact, id say that the 2006 bulls were better overall than the current bulls (sans rose)
The bulls without rose would be a great defensive team, but not elite, its his offensive abilities that puts them over the top, that makes things easier for luol deng to get his, that allows our team NOT to depend solely on carlos boozer for consistent offense. Cj watson might produce better defensive numbers when hes on the court, but its not like rose is a liability on defense either. He plays both sides of hte court, he leads this team and provides what they need to win.
Go look at any game the bulls have played where they have dominated, or any win, and find me one where rose wasnt the CENTER of the bulls offense. Simply put anytime rose has played bad this season (which has been rare) the bulls have lost. Thats a pretty damn telling sign of exactly what his worth on this team is
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 24, 2011 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions
No one would argue that Rose isn't extremely valuable
Just that he’s not as good as Dwight or Lebron. Have you ever seen those two guys play? That shouldn’t be construed as an insult to Rose by any means. I just have a hard time understanding why the guy having the 3rd or 4th best season became the seemingly unanimous MVP pick this year.
by Charlieb on Mar 24, 2011 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Its awkward that the year that teams stop doubling Howard is the year
people want to give him the MVP.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 24, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
His numbers are up. But his team is doing worse… Yay, MVP!
Fuck the Big Macs!
by BAB-Bass on Mar 24, 2011 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions
And really, until he has less turnovers than Rose.
He shouldn’t be put above Rose for MVP. If you are the primary ball handler, yeah, you are going to have some turnovers, but center ?
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 24, 2011 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Less turnovers?
Is that really your argument for why Rose should be ahead of Dwight? Centers shouldn’t turn the ball over much? Are you serious? You suggest that primary ball-handlers should turn the ball over more when they’ve played PG or whatever perimeter position their whole lives and practiced ball security extensively. High usage centers (or low-post PFs) will turn the ball over a lot since they have a high center of gravity and when they draw doubles, a guard or SF can come in and strip the ball. MVP should be more than, “who has less turnovers.” I won’t deny Rose’s importance to the Bulls’ offense but when it comes to Dwight Howard, he’s the most important player to the Magic’s offense and defense.
Dwight's watching you! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dwight Howard: Strong as an ox, swift as a gazelle.
by GameManager on Mar 26, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
umm yes?
primary ball handlers SHOULD turn over the ball more because they are handling the ball for a longer duration of the time, so there are far more chances, the primary ball handler is putting the ball on the floor a lot more, is passing the ball a lot more, while the center or big man is more often just holding the ball for a maximum of 3 seconds and then either scoring or passing out to a shooter, (or easy pass to a repost)…
and a lot of dwights turnovers dont come from just his ball handling, offensive fouls also are in play
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 28, 2011 3:26 AM EDT up reply actions
lol
You almost actually had me thinking that teams don’t double Howard for a second.
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 24, 2011 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not just pure statistics.
There is an intangible element to the NBA MVP whether it is liked or not. Rose certainly has the intangibles and the nightly highlight plays.
Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 24, 2011 10:57 AM EDT reply actions
He has the warm fuzzies.
Cool. I don’t think that should be a criteria for the MVP of the best basketball league in the world.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 24, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions 4 recs
There is no criteria, thats the fun of it.
Voters are welcome to use warm fuzzies as a basis.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 24, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, it's ONLY the "warm fuzzies"
He’s not good at basketball or anything. Give me a break.
Thank God that we have people like you keeping a watchful eye over this basketball universe.
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 24, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 11 recs
Never claimed he didn't have the other stuff.
2HA’s says that despite the statistics, Rose has something over the others — the intangibles. That’s not a margin I’m down with.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Westbrook is having a very good year, but he isn't even the best player on his team,
let alone the league. The same thing could be said about Pau Gasol/Kobe Bryant and Dwyane Wade/Lebron James. Are they even the MVP of their team, let alone the league? I’m a Bulls fan, so I’m probably slightly biased towards Rose, but the MVP voting should come down to him, Howard, and Dirk, and maybe LaMarcus Aldridge. Randolph, Love, and Stoudemire are very good players, but give me a break….they shouldn’t even be in this discussion unless you are talking about the top 10 MVP candidates.
by ross62681 on Mar 24, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
This post comes a few days after the Bulls KILLED your Anaheim Royals...
Cry me a river, Tom
Fuck the Big Macs!
by BAB-Bass on Mar 24, 2011 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, I'd be mad too if my team got utterly... dismantled.
Destroyed.
Finished.
Erased.
Embarrassed.
eat. sleep. hoop. repeat. become legendary.
by Sir Buckets on Mar 24, 2011 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Trust me
Plenty of teams have killed the Kings. This has been brewing all year. Just ask the B-a-B commenters who claim I stopped doing MVP Rankings because I was an irrational Rose hater.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually, refusing to factor in all the intangibles in the game of basketball is
a slap in the face to the best basketball league in the world, brah.
I bet you’re one of those guys that never understands what their significant other is saying.
eat. sleep. hoop. repeat. become legendary.
by Sir Buckets on Mar 24, 2011 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Whoa, whoa, whoa.
Gonna need to see evidence of having a ‘significant other’ that isn’t some crusty towel stuffed under his bed first before I accuse him of not being able to understand what the ‘significant other’ is saying.
Your 2011 Chicago White Sox: Donkey Kong!!!
by 2ndHalfAdjustments on Mar 24, 2011 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Well this is completely necessary.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
The reason people like to make their case using "intangibles", is that by definition, their value cannot be assessed
So they can keep on believing whatever crazy shit they want to believe, and nobody can dispute it.
Lebron and Dwight Howard are so much better than the rest of the league that any argument for an MVP other than one of them would have to be based on “intangibles”.
by Charlieb on Mar 24, 2011 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Dwyane Wade would like to know
why he has to steal the ball from Lebron to get more asts in order to get into this conversation
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 24, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Wade gets just as many touches as Lebron in the Heat offense
Lebron just accomplishes a little more with his. But putting Wade in the conversation is fine with me. I’d probably rank him 3rd or 4th on my MVP ballot.
by Charlieb on Mar 24, 2011 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions
The roles for Wade with the ball
and Lebron with the ball are most definitely different and no, Wade’s usage is the same as Lebron’s but how he uses the ball when he has it is completely different, and thus it does not accurately reflect that he does not touch the ball as much as Lebron. The last time BBR showed their touches, Lebron averaged almost 2 touches per minute, while Wade averaged 1.5, that’s a big difference over the course of a game and manifests itself in different ways as can be seen as lebron passes more often, but still gets enough touches to be able to shoot just as much as Wade.
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 24, 2011 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I wasn't familiar with the touches statistic
But you are right that their roles have been a little different this year. And Lebron might get more assists largely because their offense gives him more opportunity, but it’s also because he’s a better passer. But really, unless you are actually implying that Wade is a better basketball player than Lebron, I’m not sure why this really matters that much. Wade is definitely an elite player – Lebron is just a little better than him in almost every way.
by Charlieb on Mar 24, 2011 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Mostly by height.
I’m not saying Wade is a better basketball player, just pointing out that the logic that Lebron and Dwight have been far away the best players this year is a little flawed given a teammate on the same team as Lebron is doing the same things as Lebron with less touches and that his statistics mostly reflect that difference in touches offensively. While his role defensively and how far away from the basket he plays limits his opportunities for rebounds, which is the main difference in their defensive stats.
Also, stating that the intangible value of Wade being able to play off the ball and be mostly a scorer, while still able to be a playmaker, is an intangible value he adds to playing for the Heat that wouldn’t be there if you replaced him with some lesser player like say a Luol Deng who only plays off the ball and this not only affects his stats, but also affects Lebron’s stats in both positive and negative ways. Those intangible things need to be taken account when speaking about statistics, we shouldn’t just look at a couple statistics and be like that guy is far and away the best player here. Otherwise, I’d be right here arguing that CP3 is the best player in the league based on Win shares and he is by far the best player per minute because of WS/48 and from that he’s my MVP.
also, it’s not about better player but being on the same level of play and I think you’d be remiss if you didn’t think Wade was playing at the same level as Lebron.
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 24, 2011 10:03 PM EDT up reply actions
To clarify, it's not that I think Lebron is vastly superior to Wade
It’s just that their skill sets are so similar, and Lebron is just a little better than Wade at almost everything, so it’s pretty clear (at least to me) that he’s a better player.
by Charlieb on Mar 24, 2011 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
And I would like to clarify
that this has nothing to do with whose better, but I was just pointing out that within context and factoring in the intangibles that can’t be precisely measured, such as role and offense type, statistics can only help you to have a full, detailed good analysis of a team. That’s how knowing intangibles such as role on a team can have you not discount a player like Dirk whose having an incredibly efficient season, but is somehow left out of your analysis of best players in the league
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 24, 2011 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Dirk is also an amazing player
I just rank him on that tier of superstars below Lebron and Dwight. Dirk is having arguably having as good an offensive season as anyone, but he doesn’t have the impact on the defensive end that Lebron or Dwight do.
by Charlieb on Mar 25, 2011 7:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Lebron doesn't even have the impact
on defense that Dwight does.
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 26, 2011 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Of course not. Nobody does.
But Lebron plays better defense than any of the other MVP contenders I’ve seen discussed.
by Charlieb on Mar 26, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Lebron would like to know how many threes he has to air ball in crunch time in order to not be mvp
I only post cotton candy. Because it's delicious.
by Prevenge on Mar 24, 2011 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
So why aren't people talking about Westbrook then?
Put aside the fact that this article was simply written to get under the skin of Bulls fans, and beware, they are nasty at times. Westbrook—as every bulls fan knows—is a very good player. Personally, I love watching Westbrook play. But when the game is on the line for the Thunder, who does the ball go to? Not Westbrook.
When a Bulls game is on the line, guess whose hands the ball is in? Derrick Rose.
When Luol Deng missed a couple months last year, who was the one who led Chicago to the playoffs? Derrick Rose. When Joakim Noah tore ligaments in his thumb, who was the one who led the Bulls on a gigantic run? When Carlos Boozer broke his hand at the start of the season, and then got hurt for another short interval, who picked up the slack?
The Bulls are the best team in the Eastern Conference. They have beaten almost every team they have been faced with. Derrick Rose is the most valuable player on arguably the league’s BEST team, certainly the Eastern Conference as it currently stands.
Why not Derrick Rose? 22 year old kid who can do what he does on a NIGHTLY basis? Bummer if you don’t like that he’s up for MVP now, because he’s going to be up for many, many more as the years continue on.
follow me on Twitter!!: @MHR_Sayre and @BigTenBlogger
Also, if you ever want to lose at Madden or NBA 2k games, you can find me on XBOX at SayreB111589
by Sayre Bedinger on Mar 24, 2011 11:29 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Westbrook also has trouble executing half court offense
in late game situations.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 24, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Come on man
don’t you know you can’t talk about silly things like “taking over at the end of games” with stat people? They don’t recognize silly things like that.
Instead we should just talk about how Kevin Love is a top 5 player, and how the T Wolves would’ve won negative 25 games without him
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 24, 2011 11:39 AM EDT up reply actions 6 recs
Fun fact, Bulls have beaten every team in the league save for the knicks
-Jeeves The I in Team
by jeeves on Mar 24, 2011 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Fun Fact
The Bulls are 12th in offensive efficiency, 1st in defensive efficiency
Hmmmm… I wonder if they’re winning because of Rose’s offense, or because of their team defense
by doubleteapot on Mar 24, 2011 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
So what's your point?
If it weren’t for Rose, the Bulls might still be 1st in defensive efficiency but they’d be near the bottom of the league in offensive efficiency. In other words, they’d be the Milwaukee Bucks. Why is turning what would be a horrible offense into a slightly above-average one not valuable?
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 24, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
The Bulls
Have Kyle Korver and Carlos Boozer. Two guys who are known more for offense than defense. The Bulls would have been okay offensively, and wouldn’t have been Milwaukee Bucks bad. The Bulls’ defensive improvement is more valuable, since both guys aren’t known for defense. And that comes back to Tom Thibodeau, not Derrick Rose.
by doubleteapot on Mar 24, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Korver plays only 20 mpg, and Boozer's missed almost half the season
If the Bulls had gone 30+ games with Luol Deng as their primary scorer, they would be near or at the bottom of the league in offensive efficiency, I guarantee you.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 24, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Even if that were true
It’s much harder to become the top defensive team than to make a bad offense above average. Once again, it’s Thibodeau’s coaching.
by doubleteapot on Mar 24, 2011 4:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Look I'm more than willing to say that Thibodeau's done a great job with the defense
But in all honesty, the job he’s done on the offensive side of the ball has been fairly mediocre and without Rose, there’s no way the Bulls score enough to contend.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 24, 2011 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions
And anyways, why can't they both get credit?
Phil Jackson might be the greatest coach ever, and that’s never been used as an argument against Kobe, Shaq, or MJ in the MVP discussion. Popovich won COTY the same year Duncan won MVP. Ditto for D’Antoni and Nash.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 24, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, because teams that have Keith Bogans and Kurt Thomas in their starting lineup
for large portions of the season are supposed to dominate offensively.
There’s a word for people like you: HATER
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 24, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Nice to see that you're throwing insults
Here’s a stat for you: even though Bogans and Thomas are “starters,” Bogans is playing 17.7 mpg, and Thomas is playing 24.1 mpg. That’s not a lot of minutes for “starters.” Just because they start doesn’t mean they they are key cogs in the team or anything.
by doubleteapot on Mar 24, 2011 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions
lol, I don't consider "hater" to be some big insult
Just the general vibe I was getting from your comments.
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 24, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
The minutes thing is weird for the Bulls, definitely.
MPG is weird because of all the injuries, Luol Deng and Rose have both played 1000 more total minutes than anybody else on the roster, which is a huge number. They’re both above 2500 and roster spots 3 – 11 have a minutes range of 1500 to 900 roughly. Keith Bogans has played 1200 minutes and has been as important a cog as Boozer at 1400.
So, in minutes terms, Bogans and Boozer are roughly equal in importance. One is a liability on offense, and one is a liability on defense.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 24, 2011 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah, you're right
My main point was that being in the “starting lineup” wasn’t that important.
Also, minutes played is sort of a bad stat to use, because then Kendrick Perkins is as important as Cole Aldrich for the Thunder, and Caron Butler is as important as DeShawn Stevenson for the Mavs.
by doubleteapot on Mar 24, 2011 5:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Its important in that Rose shares a lot of minutes with Bogans
and he shares less minutes with Korver or Brewer, the other SGs. Bogans has literally one offensive skill, the set 3, and for half the season even that skill was missing and he certainly cannot create a shot. Rose does ALL shot creating in the Bulls offense. For one or two plays a game Rose goes off ball and plays decoy rather that starting the play.
When Rose doesn’t get the assist or the bucket, he’s part of the entry pass play to boozer, or he’s making the hockey assist or he draws the defenders so that the rebound or tip is there for Noah/Thomas/Gibson/Boozer.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 24, 2011 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions
the term "hater"
…is the worst thing to ever happen to discussions about sports. you are so very lame for using like it proves a point. if you throw “hater” out there and don’t follow it with any substantial argument…just…just go away. please please please go away.
by Snyde on Mar 25, 2011 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
For the record
only mentioned that “fun fact” because Sayre said
“They have beaten almost every team they have been faced with.”
and just wanted to share how right he was
-Jeeves The I in Team
by jeeves on Mar 24, 2011 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions
if rose played on the thunder the ball would be in durants hands on the last play
by vullkem116 on Mar 25, 2011 12:51 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, it wouldn't
it’d be in Rose’s and Durant would be moving off-ball just like he does now with Westbrook. The only difference is that Rose would be much more patient before he attacked
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 25, 2011 2:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I have no doubt he'll be in the conversation for years to come.
That doesn’t mean he necessarily deserves it this year, based on data.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I personally think Howard is the leader in the MVP clubhouse
though it kills me as a Bulls fan to say.
The reason Westbrook doesn’t get more love for MVP is simply because he’s not the “alpha dog” on his team. Durant is the focal point of that team/offense, and thus Westbrook gets ignored in awards such as MVP. I’m not trying to make a statement of who’s better Westbrook vs. Durant, but the perception certainly is that the Thunder is Durant’s team.
I also question the defensive stats that were linked, which supposedly show the minimal impact Rose has on defense. Those are unadjusted numbers, meaning that CJ Watson benefits greatly because the numbers aren’t adjusted for teammates or competition.
-Jeeves The I in Team
by jeeves on Mar 24, 2011 12:12 PM EDT reply actions
everyone should take a look at some of zillers mvp posts
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2010/12/8/1863461/nba-mvp-power-rankings-chris-paul-pau-gasol-lebron-james
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2010/12/22/1890288/nba-mvp-lebron-james-dirk-nowitzki-chris-paul
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/1/5/1915238/nba-mvp-lebron-james-dwyane-wade-power-rankings
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/1/19/1943796/nba-mvp-power-rankings-kevin-love-blake-griffin
thats in chronological order…unfortunately there is no real order to the lists. The reasons why some of the players are above other players, theres no real logic or pattern. The closest thing to a pattern is that rose is constantly NOT on any of the lists the entire year. In fact he made zillers list ONCE, and that was in last place, at a time when rose was putting up incredible numbers (had just started getting to the line and knocking down his 3pt shots with great accuracy)
At one point he had noah on the list instead of rose, and i love noah, but WHAT
Zillers ideas for who should be mvp should be taken with a huge grain of salt to say the least. Its not predective, its not fully stat based, its not based on observation, its based on his personal like or dislike of some players….the proof is in the pudding
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 24, 2011 1:30 PM EDT reply actions 17 recs
Not sure if he's an irrational hater, a troll, or just a complete idiot...
eat. sleep. hoop. repeat. become legendary.
by Sir Buckets on Mar 24, 2011 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
How about "all of the above"?
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
And that's the only rec you'll ever get from me...
Fuck the Big Macs!
by BAB-Bass on Mar 26, 2011 3:00 PM EDT up reply actions
this
explains everything. is this Tom Ziller free darko in disguise?
by Jesus Fever on Mar 24, 2011 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah.
He talks like Rose is leading the pack in the fucking crab walk or something, wherein everyone should get a participation ribbon, even the fat kid who can’t lift his ass completely off of the ground. I mean, Kevin Love is good player and all, but to answer the question where would the Timberwolves be without him is easy: still in fucking sucksville, actually. If Rose’s team had a handful of wins, this discussion wouldn’t be happening. And Ziller’s argument is full of this sophomoric faulty causality and a certain dogmatism that is becoming of a drunk 101 student arguing that all convicted felons should be thrown into a pit of lions because Spartacus made it work for him. Some of his claims are absurd if only for absurd’s sake and becoming of a much bigger problem that piccolomair has aptly pointed out.
by Dogfishhead on Mar 25, 2011 1:52 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
That column
specifically looked at the best players on crappy teams. Specifically. Like, I wrote an intro paragraph explaining that in detail.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, Bulls fans are sooo special ...
… that I only have irrational hate for their player.
Get a grip.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
okay then answer me this
do you believe rose should be in the conversation for mvp. Forget if he should win it, do you believe he should even be in the conversation. If the answer is yes, then i want to know why did he only make ur stupid rankings* once. If the answer is no then i want to know why the hell no (and dont point to the article above, because that only explains why he SHOULDNT be the mvp, not why he shouldnt be in the conversation)
*by the way, i asked this before in one of the rankings, but what was your reasoning behind the damn power rankings. You cant tell me it was based on stats, at first i thought it was based on who was hot at the time (team wise) which explained cp3 being up there while his team was undefeated, but then you have kevin love, and lebron over wade, and yea….what the hell were you utilzing to rank them. Cuz if its gut reaction then obviously, your gut probably has some bias which explains why rose is on the list once (whether you like it or not).
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 28, 2011 3:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Ugh, "In the conversation"
I’ve always hated that expression. If you have already decided someone is not deserving of the MVP award, why would you put him “in the conversation”? There are no gold stars handed out for being “in the conversation”.
by Charlieb on Mar 28, 2011 7:44 AM EDT up reply actions
"I came for the JBJ comments"
"I don't give a flying f**k who you think I look like"
by soxrule!35 on Mar 24, 2011 1:33 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Hey, so did I!
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 24, 2011 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions
The biggest difference between Rose and Westbrook is when they shoot the ball
This doesn’t show up in the box score, but you can tell by watching the games (or by doing a careful statistical analysis) that Westbrook is far more aggressive with the ball in the early stages of the shotclock. He’ll often take horrible low-% shots early in the shotclock as opposed to letting the offense work for a better shot, which definitely hurts his team. Rose is the complete opposite. He often ends up taking those same low-% shots, but only at the end of the possession when there is much lower chance of someone else getting a better shot.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 24, 2011 1:57 PM EDT reply actions 6 recs
That is a fantastic observation. Rose very often shoots the shot when the shot clock is expiring or at the end of quarter as he does not care about percentages but only about winning.
I have never, unlike Westbrook, seen Rose try to pad his stats.
by adocarbog on Mar 25, 2011 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Good point
Nice observation, Polo.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Westbrook also has that other guy, Kevin Durant
Derrick Rose will be suspended by the NBA because he has broken too many ankles.
by jrobulls on Mar 24, 2011 3:28 PM EDT reply actions
I would love for somebody to write about how opposing defenses
approach each MVP candidate. That might be more illuminating than statistical arguments.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 24, 2011 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
OKC's offense is, as a result, much better.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Not only is it better
but part of what makes Rose transcendant (and the winner of this award, in my opinion) is the fact that he’s the primary option on offense throughout the game and in clutch situations, and yet he can’t be stopped.
If he had a top 2 or 3 player taking attention away from him like Westbrook does, his metrics on offense would be off the charts.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Mar 26, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I see they're giving out the title "NBA Contributor" to anyone nowadays...
eat. sleep. hoop. repeat. become legendary.
by Sir Buckets on Mar 24, 2011 3:57 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
"I disagree with you, therefore you are terrible."
That’s not a good look.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Rose is a great player
and should be the MVP this year.
This from a Heat fan.
Westbrook/DHoward/Love do not single handedly influence games the way Rose does on offense. I understand DHoward is a dominant defender, but thats what Def Player of the Year is for.
If the Heat had the best record I’d say Lebron/Wade co MVPs but we don’t. So Rose deserves it, at least this year he does.
I understand why people dislike DRose. Chicago fans can be………………………..
The overhyping of him doesn’t take away from his game though. He’s humble and plays hard. He’s a great representative for the NBA.
Words I Never Said by Lupe Fiasco <- Please do not click this link if you are afraid of the truth.
by Davone_Is_BessT on Mar 24, 2011 4:08 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Lupe Fiasco = Truth
that is all.
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 24, 2011 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
I don't dislike Rose.
I think there are better MVP candidates.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Rose is a product of his own massive hype machine.
Were all so mad because unlike last year, there is no clear cut MVP. I’m no lebron apologist, but I think he is the best player on the planet. He can’t win this year though.
Rose, Howard and others are all in the race, but no one stands out. Rose gets it because of the warm fuzzies, and that’s a pretty terrible statement about the league and the way it runs.
So I will be exercising my MVP vote for Monta Ellis, because why not?
by RACE!! on Mar 24, 2011 4:23 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I've been thinking about this
from a non-stats perspective, and I realized that the real problem with MVP voting is that the press gets to vote on this stuff. And, let’s face it, most of the press is not going to end up voting on the stats, and vote on the story, because the press people want to create the best story possible. It’s not their fault – they need a good story in order to be able to write something that people will read. And Derrick Rose is the most popular story right now. This is just what happens when people who write the story also get to make the story.
by doubleteapot on Mar 25, 2011 12:02 AM EDT reply actions
Even with all the great work people have done
to create different stats that open a window to different aspects of the game, basketball is still subjective, and it should be. Its a game filled with nuance and color. The media people do create the story and are story oriented and are selected to be where they are because they look for the best story, and they specialize in the subjective.
Because there is no one stat or combination of stats that can tell us who the best player is, its definitely ok to have MVP voting in the hands of the masters of the subjective.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 25, 2011 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh come on
I’m not talking about subjectivity. I’m talking about the fact that the media gets to vote on the story. Everyone is subjective. But the last thing we need are reporters getting to create their own stories. That’s not subjectivity. That’s a desire to sell, to make money, to find the best possible story possible so people will read their stories and make them money. That’s what should be removed from MVP voting.
by doubleteapot on Mar 25, 2011 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Well maybe instead of reading stories about sports
people can just pore over spreadsheets.
And instead of an MVP award, you can just click at the top of a statistical column and determine who is the best in that statistical category.
And you know what? Forget the award presentation and all the fanfare. When people ask for an awards presentation, you can just say, “Didn’t you see? They clicked the top of the column of data. The data has been sorted.”
Ok, so I’m being facetious.
My point is this: you can’t separate the narrative from sports. It’s ingrained in us as human beings. Our narratives define us, and we find great meaning in the narratives of our teams and sports heroes. That’s why stats will never win out over a compelling narrative.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Mar 26, 2011 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Ok time to slowly spell out my point
Most reporters are biased towards the narrative that gives them the most readers.
Also:
So you’re basically implying that Derrick Rose has had the most compelling narrative? That Dwight Howard taking the Magic to a playoff spot is a less compelling narrative? Because in case you haven’t noticed, Gilbert Arenas is terrible, and they really have no low post presence except for Dwight Howard.
And if you wanna be facetious:
Well maybe instead of looking at stats
people can just pore over stories.
And instead of an MVP award, you can just look at which story has the most views.
And you know what? Forget the award presentation and all the fanfare. When people ask for an awards presentation, you can just say, "Didn’t you see the page views? It was the most popular."
by doubleteapot on Mar 26, 2011 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Except that looking up which page was looked at the most
means falling back on stats.
And yes, Derrick Rose’s season has been a much more compelling story. Ask almost anyone in the press. That straw poll will indicate that he will get the award, and not Howard.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Mar 26, 2011 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Ummmm... I'm talking about basketball stats?
And if you want to look at it that way, then the “compelling narrative” is a stat too. Because narratives can also be broken down into how many people like that narrative. That’s what makes them “compelling.”
If you're watching a blowout, you can pass the time by counting the double teapots.
by doubleteapot on Mar 28, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
I've also been thinking about this.
And if Steve Nash was having Derrick’s season, everyone would quit playing basketball becuase he’d be considered the greatest player to ever live and would either be kinghted, sainted, or else encouraged to grow a full rabbinical beard so the fawning public could more accurately picture him as Jesus.
by Dogfishhead on Mar 25, 2011 2:45 AM EDT reply actions
Steve Nash's stats are crazy in those years.
He was simply the best offensive player at the time, and I can’t believe people want to denigrate that achievement. 64% TS% ? 11 assists per game ? goddamn, those are some stats. He deserved those awards.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 25, 2011 1:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh really?
Kobe’s stats in 2005-2006: He averaged 40 ppg for an entire month, scored 81 points in an entire game, and dragged a terrible team to the playoffs. And yes Nash did “deserve” those awards, but Kobe deserved it more
by doubleteapot on Mar 25, 2011 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
I actually would have voted Shaq No. 1 in 2006, Kobe No. 2.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
In 2006??
Shaq missed 23 games that season. Maybe you meant 2005?
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 26, 2011 11:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Right
I had Shaq in ’05, Kobe in ’06.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 28, 2011 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Actually
I might have taken LeBron in ’06, if I had a time machine and a vote.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 28, 2011 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm cool with that
glad someone actually agreed with me
by doubleteapot on Mar 26, 2011 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions
And that'd be a mistake, too.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
doood i swapped drose and westbrook on 2k11
bulls sucked
thunder good.
rose must be the magic powder for success
"I ran into lebron last night, asked him for a dollar. He gave me 75 cents. I was puzzled, then realized he never gives you the fourth quarter"
by sin on Mar 25, 2011 4:31 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Well, clearly ...
A video game should determine our MVP.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
video games are totally stat based
no media misconception and storys…isnt that the kind of mvp choosing you are trying to sell?
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 28, 2011 3:38 AM EDT up reply actions
This was half-hearted.
Science also includes actually going out and watching that which you study in its environment, it isn’t simply sitting in a lab and plugging numbers, you gotta watch.
Rose’s candidacy is built on warm fuzzies, yes. But, he also happens to be a top five player who is having a sublime season on a really good team. You can try to compare production but without actually breaking down Rose’s and Westbrook’s game, well, you’re just glossing the menu really.
Also:
Then why is Kevin Love in your MVP discussion? Do you actually watch what he does? He is a bad defender who can shot the three and grabs a bunch of rebounds. He hardly rotates on D and he is not a game changer on the level of LBJ, Rose, or even Blake Griffin.
Providing numbers without context is arrogant and short-sighted. Furthermore, saying that the numbers provide the context is foolish.
The games are the context. Watch them.
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
by MRubio52 on Mar 25, 2011 12:36 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Rose may or may not be a top 5 player
But no rational person could make a case that he’s the best. Unless they change the name of the award to “one of the top 5 most valuable players”, then Rose should not be a consensus pick for the award. If you take away voter biases and give the MVP to the guy that is playing the best basketball, then Lebron and Dwight are the only guys that should be realistic candidates.
Unfortunately, Rose gets the nod over Lebron because voting for the new guy is a more interesting story, and he’s clearly more popular. Rose gets the nod over Dwight because the voters have always stubbornly penalized star players with weak supporting casts by insisting that individual awards should be based on team success instead of the individual’s performance (that’s what championships and win/loss records are for).
by Charlieb on Mar 25, 2011 6:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Rose gets the nod over LeBron because he's been better this year.
LeBron is blessed, absolutely blessed with supreme physical talents, and he is the leagues most efficient player that is teamed up with another great player and a good one.
And they are behind the Bulls in the seeding and LeBron has lost to Rose 3 times, and those three times have put the Heat behind the Bulls.
The Heat with all those closers can’t win a close game.
If there was an award for most efficient player, Paul and LeBron would alternate years winning that award.
Last year and the year before LeBron was the MVP, but this year he has proven not to be.
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
by MRubio52 on Mar 26, 2011 2:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Also, biases towards numbers count too.
Basketball isn’t a series of one on one matchups ala Baseball, it’s 5 on 5, so you can be overly biased towards numbers…Rose still rates well in advanced metrics, and you can’t tell me that his play this year isn’t on par with LeBron or Dwight. It is, and you could argue it’s better.
Rational people can argue it, it seems like the irrational group belongs in the so-called “progressive” camp of new science. I love numbers, but to use only numbers is ludicrous.
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
by MRubio52 on Mar 26, 2011 2:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Who says I'm using only numbers?
I base my opinions on a player’s overall impact on a basketball game. While I do think numbers paint a fairly accurate picture of a player’s performance on the offensive end, there’s clearly a lot more to the game that we’re not smart enough to reduce to numbers yet.
Namely defense. Dwight has a bigger impact on the defensive end of the court than any other player in the game by far, with apologies to KG (no…I take that back. KG is a douche bag). And I’d argue that Lebron has a bigger impact on the defensive end than any perimeter player in the league. His versatility in defending 4-5 positions and his ability to play safety and cover almost the entire court makes him a nightmare to game plan around. Meanwhile, Rose? I guess I’d say he’s an above average one on one defender, and he plays adequate team defense within Thib’s system. No slouch, but clearly not a game changer on that end of the court.
So I guess my question would be…..if Rose is clearly inferior on defense to Lebron and Dwight, then is he THAT much better on offense than those two to make him the more valuable player? Considering the numbers clearly indicate Lebron is a much more efficient player on offense than Rose, I’d be curious as to what “intangibles” matter THAT much.
by Charlieb on Mar 26, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Did you just say Lebron's individual
defense is a nightmare to gameplan against? Maybe for old slow players like Pierce who can’t just bully him, but his on-ball defense isn’t exactly lockdown Ron Artest 2004 defense. I will agree that he and Wade as free safeties is hard to compensate for, but that’s why we play the games because free safety defense is less effective over well-timed passes and crisp offense. You just have to make more careful passes against teams with good off-ball defenders. On-ball though, they could be much better still.
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 26, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Lockdown on-ball perimeter defense isn't as important as it used to be
Stern’s gradual sissification of perimeter play has shifted the focus of great defense elsewhere. Think of all the best defensive teams this season and over the past decade. They all feature two things: a well implemented team system, and a player(s) that can compensate for the inevitable mistakes made by teammates (usually a shotblocking presence in the paint and/or a free safety type, like Lebron). I’ll admit that Lebron is merely above average as a one-on-one defender, but lockdown one-on-one defenders are a luxury, not a necessity on defense. Lebron’s contributions playing safety are much greater than guys like Thabo that excel in one-on-one situations.
Regardless, I didn’t see any disagreement that Lebron is the much superior defensive player than Rose. So do you believe that Rose is THAT much better than Lebron on offense to make up for that disparity on the other end?
by Charlieb on Mar 26, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I definitely don't refute
Lebron is better defensively than Rose. I got nothing about that, but I’m just pointing out that Lebron is merely an average on-ball defender and doesn’t really have the impact you think he does. I really think you’re underestimating the other excellent off-ball defender on that team and I think you’re also greatly underestimating the impact of a lockdown defender and how that allows a free safety defender or alleviates the load for a paint presence. All of the best defenses in the NBA have one or both with something to compensate.
I don’t think free safety defenders have nearly the defensive impact you are trying to assign to Lebron. Even the best free safety defenders are big men protecting the inside. Perimeter free safety defenders don’t have the same impact, unless combined with other better defenders. The Heat for example have both Lebron and Wade and that allows them to rotate easier knowing that Wade or Lebron can hold his own while the other plays free safety despite the lack of a lockdown protect the paint C although Z and Damp and Anthony have been a part of great defenses in the past
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 26, 2011 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions
We definitely disagree about Lebron's overall value as a defender
I think you’re severely underrating Lebron’s on-ball defense as well. I’ve always thought he was underrated there because of his technique (or complete lack thereof). He makes mistakes all the time, and he relies on his athleticism to make up for it. I know we’re supposed to condemn guys for stuff like that, but the thing is, he actually has the ability to make up for his mistakes with his athleticism. The rules that apply to everyone else sometimes don’t really apply to him. It doesn’t always look like what we’ve been told good defense is supposed to look like, but my eyes tell me it’s still pretty effective. And so do all of the advanced statistics I’ve seen.
And I don’t think I’m underestimating Wade. He’s a top 5 player in the world, and everything I’ve said in this thread about Lebron would also apply to Wade (just slightly less so). You are right, though, that Wade allows Lebron to freelance a little more than he’s been able to in the past.
by Charlieb on Mar 26, 2011 5:23 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you
underrate Wade’s defense as his lower defensive WSs and other defensive metrics are always short because of his defensive rebounding not his lack of effect on a defense. He’s got the best steal rate on the team, the better block rate, he plays in the majority of the great defensive rotations, and holds opposing SGs to an oppPER that is the lowest on the team. That to me points to a better defender, not just because a player who is more often attacked near the rim grabs rebounds better, but that’s just me.
Anyway, I don’t underrate Lebron’s on-ball defense. I know he’s an average on-ball defender, but his mistakes are less covered up by his athleticism and more by his teammates own great help defense. Which is why I said I think you’re underestimating Wade and others help defense on the team while overrating many of the aspects of Lebron’s own defense on and off the ball. It is what it is though, we can agree to disagree. I don’t think Lebron has the second best defense of MVP candidates, but I can see why statistics would say so.
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 26, 2011 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions
The statistics aren't the only thing that points to Lebron being an elite defender
Players, GM’s, coaches, and announcers around the league almost universally agree that Lebron plays great D. I don’t think you’ll find a player in the league that says Lebron is easy to score on. Basically everyone except fans that don’t like Lebron think he’s an elite defender. I can see why you would think he isn’t, though. There’s no shortage of fans that don’t like him.
And yeah, I agree that Wade is also an elite defender. Near the tops in the league. The only negative thing I’ve ever had to say about Wade is that he’s not as good as the best player in the world.
by Charlieb on Mar 26, 2011 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Did I say Lebron wasn't an elite defender?
I said he was an average on-ball defender, but a great off-ball defender. Use of the word elite is overblown as no one has ever actually said what is truly elite or what elite means. If Dwight is on another level defensively then how could any compared to him be truly elite, since the very definition of the word is that it is the best. We call players elite for different reasons. If you’re going to insinuate I don’t think Lebron’s defense is elite because of verbage then that is of your own accord.
Just because I laugh at Lebron’s dumb statements, doesn’t mean I don’t know and can’t tell the difference between elite on-ball defense and Lebron’s on-ball defense, which again I never called bad just not as good as other great defenders who make less mistakes. Again, we can agree to disagree to that, but me not liking him has nothing to do with that. Just because I don’t think the savior of the Heat is Lebron doesn’t mean that I don’t think he is a great player. Just because I laughed at the parade of hubris in Miami doesn’t mean I don’t recognize the talent on that team.
These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world... and then we fucked up the end game. - Charlie Wilson
TRADE KOBY FOR LUTHER HEAD!!!! (it's a movement)
KOBY BRAYNT isn't bi-polar, he's #Bi-WINNING
by Marty Mart on Mar 27, 2011 1:04 PM EDT up reply actions
as in his overall impact in games where he can advance his teams seeding by beating a main rival
and has failed to do so?
He is by far the most talented player in the league, you are correct, but for the 2010-2011 season he is not as good as Derrick Rose or Dwight Howard.
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
by MRubio52 on Mar 26, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
His team isn't as good as Derrick Rose's team
Lebron isn’t playing any worse than he ever has, but he’s winning less than last year because he’s surrounded by redundant and incompatible players. But if MVP is an individual award, then the pieces surrounding them should be irrelevant. If those things are relevant, then it’s just a best player on the best team award, in which case it should go to Manu Ginobli. I’ve yet to hear an argument in favor of Derrick Rose over Lebron that wouldn’t also make Ginobli (and Kobe Bryant if the Lakers pass the Bulls in the standings) more deserving of the award than Rose.
by Charlieb on Mar 26, 2011 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes he is.
He isn’t having as good a season this year as he has in years past.
LeBron has had chances to flip the tables on the EC standings, and he hasn’t done so. He had two solid chances to effectively win games against the current #1 team in the EC and he has failed. I’m sorry, but moments like these absolutely have to count in MVP discussion.
Derrick Rose is playing better ball than anyone in the league this year. LeBron is the leagues most talented player, but Derrick is playing better this year.
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
by MRubio52 on Mar 26, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
And I do get the Kobe argument, I do.
But Manu? Tell me when opposing defenses have to adjust to him like they do for Rose, James and Kobe.
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
by MRubio52 on Mar 26, 2011 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you misunderstood my point
Rose absolutely deserves the award this year more than Manu & Kobe. The only reason they would deserve the award more than Rose is if you valued team success more than individual performance. Just like the only reason Rose would deserve the award more than Lebron or Dwight is if team wins matter more than individual performance.
You’re sure to disagree with that point, but I just wanted to clarify what I was trying to say. Maybe I also misunderstood you, since I assumed team success was your main criterion for the award. After all, if Lebron’s significant statistical advantage and superiority on the defensive end don’t matter, then what else is there besides team wins? “Intangibles?” If all that matters in this discussion is something that, by definition, cannot be assessed, then I think I’m not sure what else can be said.
by Charlieb on Mar 26, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
The tangibles
like closing out a game against a conference rival instead of wetting the bed.
He’s got better stats, but it really isn’t about the player who puts up the best stats, that’s an award that does not exist.
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
by MRubio52 on Mar 27, 2011 1:49 AM EDT up reply actions
There's no award for "closing out a game against a conference rival" either
But if you think that a sample size of the few plays that have the most emotionally compelling story are worth more than the 7,000 or 8,000 other plays that take place over the course of a season, then that sounds about right. That’s exactly the type of “logic” I’m expecting to read from hack journalists all over the country after Rose wins the award.
Then again, I guess I’m the one not making sense here. After all, the award has always just gone to the best story among the top 10 players or so. (And always will as long is it’s handed out by guys that make a living writing a story about it). I’ll concede that Derrick Rose is the top 10 player with the most compelling story and should therefore win the award. All my arguments are based on what I think the highest honor of the regular season should be (best player) instead of what it actually is.
by Charlieb on Mar 27, 2011 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Really.
There’s no value in defeating a team 3 times, effectively putting your team in first place in the conference?
None?
Ok.
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
by MRubio52 on Mar 27, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Sure there is. Every one of the 82 games played this season matter.
But Lebron and Derrick Rose did not decide the result of those games by themselves. Especially considering Lebron didn’t play in one of them, and he played pretty well in the other two.
Like I said before, if your handing out an individual award based on team wins, then crown Ginobli MVP.
If it’s the best player, then it’s Lebron or Dwight.
If it’s the best story among the best players, then it’s Rose.
by Charlieb on Mar 27, 2011 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
He had a chance to decide two of them when it mattered most.
It takes a team to put you in position to win, but they were hurt in the standings by LeBron’s odd inability to close this year.
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
by MRubio52 on Mar 27, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I do!
Why do you think I don’t? Because we disagree? Then maybe I should tell you to “go watch the games.” Is that fair?
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
where was it in this article then?
Show me why they are similar with numbers and I’ll show you just how different they are in tape.
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
by MRubio52 on Mar 26, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
A Note on Supporting Casts
I like how Ziller admits that Westbrook plays next to an All-Star in Durant, and that Rose has a less talented supporting cast… and then implies that Rose has 3 outstanding teammates, while Westbrook plays with Durant and a bunch of no-names:
Ziller’s reasoning is that
Well, not so fast.
For additional perspective, consider that Deng goes his entire career without getting a whiff of playing time at an All-Star game, and same for Noah. Then Boozer, voted onto two All-Star teams (’07, ’08) misses 18 games and ends up taking additional time working himself into the Bulls offense. Then he comes back, and Noah has to miss 30 games with hand surgery.
And somehow that gets translated into Rose playing with three star-level players, while Westbrook gets the support of only one fellow star in Kevin Durant, and a bunch of no-name guys who would never even make an All-Snub All-Star team?
So Serge Ibaka isn’t one of the best young bigs in the league, with great blocks per game and blocks per 48 stats? James Harden isn’t one of the most efficient and dependable young perimeter players? And neither of them is even going to be considered a snub for any All-Star game throughout their careers?
I believe you have overstated your case, Mr. Ziller. Good day to you, sir.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Mar 26, 2011 2:37 AM EDT reply actions
Deng is better than you're allowing
Deng will definitely be All-Defense this year, and he’s flirted with two All-Star teams (including this year, when he was surely one of the last three on the outside). Boozer’s been an All-Star, and probably would have gotten past Bosh if he’d missed fewer games. Noah will be an All-Star.
You’re right, I undersold the Thunder’s supporting cast. But there’s no question that OKC’s offensive talent drops off after Westbrook and Durant, just as on the Bulls it drops off after Rose and Boozer.
by Tom Ziller on Mar 26, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
How many games has Durant missed this year?
Compare that to games Boozer has missed this year.
For a good chunk of time, that last sentence should read:
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
by MRubio52 on Mar 26, 2011 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
I guess I think that reasoning goes only so far.
Dwight Howard plays with three All-Stars:
Yet when comparing his eligibility for this award to Westbrook’s, would you say Howard’s cast is more star-studded, and therefore Westbrook must be a better candidate?
I get that you’d want to compare supporting casts generally, but when you’re talking about almost-All-Stars, former All-Stars, and one-time All-Stars, I just think it gets a little fuzzy.
P.S. – I’d be incredibly happy for Deng if he got All-Defense.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Mar 26, 2011 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions
the drop off of offensive production is pretty steep
from rose to boozer. Besides boozer has and forever will be an inconsistent injury prone offensive player. Hes only good enough that opponents have to keep him in check and not let him get post position, but once you keep him out oft the post he becomes a lot more limited, and then theres his constant injuries
Deng RELIES on both a system and rose so that he can triumph in the background. Take deng out of the system or double team him when he touches the ball, and hes more likely to turn it over than score. He still dribbles while looking at the ball
Which is the final point, neither of those two can create a shot, and while they both have shown to be smart and somewhat unselfish players, neither are good enough at passing to make up for the lack of ability to move with teh ball.
The magic, nor the thunders top offensive players have these flaws.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 28, 2011 3:47 AM EDT up reply actions
It may be too late to comment, but I'll do so anyway.
I’ll just repeat something I’ve already said on Blog A Bull.
My only complaint about Ziller and Hollinger is the way they patronize Bulls fans, as if they are all idiots. Granted, I’m sure there are plenty of responses they get that do make Bulls fans look like idiots. But Ziller and Hollinger do not acknowledge the radical position they are taking. They act as if this is the first year the MVP might go to someone who doesn’t have the top stats. They act as if traditional media is overturning tradition, granting this hallowed award to someone undeserving. They are shocked, shocked I say, that warm fuzzies would sway the voting.
And Ziller and Hollinger and others are unwilling to take their arguments to the logical extreme, which is to award the MVP based on stats alone, without regard for team records, and without taking a vote. Short of that, they must acknowledge that individual stats must be balanced with team success, and voters must decide how to make that balance, and then the whole process becomes very unscientific.
by Tim S. on Mar 26, 2011 12:10 PM EDT reply actions
Umm
Did you even read this article? It concludes with discussing Steve Nash winning even when others had better stats.
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by Exhibit G on Mar 28, 2011 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions
It's not the first time he's done this this year either.
4:09 Derrick Rose makes free throw 1 of 2 80-83
4:09 Derrick Rose makes free throw 2 of 2 81-83
3:36 Carlos Boozer makes layup (Derrick Rose assists) 83-83
2:50 83-87 Brandon Jennings shooting foul (Derrick Rose draws the foul)
2:50 Derrick Rose makes free throw 1 of 2 84-87
2:50 Derrick Rose makes free throw 2 of 2 85-87
2:28 Joakim Noah makes dunk (Derrick Rose assists) 87-87
1:53 Derrick Rose makes layup 89-87
1:07 Derrick Rose makes 13-foot jumper 91-87
0:42 Derrick Rose makes 14-foot jumper 93-87
0:29 Ronnie Brewer makes layup (Derrick Rose assists) 95-87
0:00 End of the 4th Quarter
0:00 End Game
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
by MRubio52 on Mar 27, 2011 1:50 AM EDT reply actions
Bottom line!
People who complain about the MVP being a popularity contest are right, but they need to get over it. “Most Valuable” is subjective enough to mean different things to different people and for people to vote on different criteria. Remember that Michael Jordan IN HIS PRIME didn’t win most of the MVP awards even though he’s the best player ever. Can you believe that Karl Malone got the MVP over Michael? Yea, it happens.
If you want a “best player in the league” award then Rose vs Howard would be a meaningless debate anyway, because Lebron’s the best player (that is, best combination of skill and talent).
The reason that Rose deserves it, apart from all the hoopla about the Bulls as a team or what a great guy he is, is simple: Rose comes up big in every big situation and every big game. He doesn’t choke like Lebron has done over and over. He doesn’t cost his team free throws or miss games because he got a technical, he doesn’t take bad fouls late in games, or bad shots.
Stan Van Gundy says that Dwight Howard impacts more plays than any one. Defensively, that’s true, but offensively, no one has more impact than Rose. He handles the ball and calls the play on every posession. He creates for himself and teammates, and he does exactly whatever the team needs. If they need free throws he gets fouled. If they need quick scores he pushes the ball. If they need to slow it down, he makes sure that they still get good shots. When the team goes badly, Rose is the first to take the blame. He scored the final 19 points in regulation vs the Pacers, and when they lost the game in overtime he took responsibility for losing the game with a bad turnover in OT.
That kind of leadership doesn’t show up in the box score, but it shows up in the “WINS” column. There’s a reason that Rose is already the most popular NBA star among NBA stars, because every one understands as soon as they meet him that he’s a cold blooded killer on the court, but humble off of it. Doc Rivers coached the East All Stars this season and he commented to Steve Kerr that Rose’s presence in the All Star locker room was the most amazing thing he saw. In a room where every one is a rival and every one is to a degree jealous of the success of every other star, every one liked Rose. That’s practically impossible, but Rose does it because he’s a true winner.
Rose is a large part of the reason why the Bulls have flourished so much under Tom Thibadeau. It doesn’t get talked about enough but Thibs is a taskmaster. The Bulls have two hour shootarounds when most teams have 20 minute shootarounds. He makes them accountable for every mistake they make on defense. Most teams would tune out a rookie coach who acted like Thibadeau does, but the Bulls can’t, and don’t, because their leader, the best player on the team, never questions the coach, whatever he demands. That means that the Bulls don’t just get the most from D Rose, they get the most from every single player on the roster. That’s SO rare in the NBA, and it usually only happens for coaches with unquestionable resumes. Phil Jackson or Gregg Popovich get that kind of respect. For a rookie coach to get it? That comes from the team’s star getting every one else in line, not by screaming and yelling and being a fool, but by being accountable, working hard all the time and taking accountability for all team failures.
That’s why the Bulls win so much, and that’s why D Rose is the clear MVP of the league.
by Educated fan on Mar 27, 2011 9:58 PM EDT reply actions
I don't want to live in a world
where a computer or a calculator tells me whats best. That’s why college football blows sometimes.
There’s always going to be someone who’s better than someone else at something, especially basketball wise.
Until someone leads the league in every stat, there will always be debate on who wins the MVP. So, it’s never going to end. Therfore, you have to consider what a guy does for his team. Heat with no James, and they’re still pretty well off. I would say the same for the Magic.
That’s why I thought, since the beginning of the season, one of the biggest contenders for MVP was Dirk.
I think you guys have it all wrong. It’s most valuable to his team, and then when compared to everyone in the league, it’s who contributes the most of those 30 guys; For example, Love’s season has been monstrous. But the Wolves are NOT good. He’s good, but not good enough to elevate his team.
In that respect, I’d honestly say Dirk is MVP, because within this season we got to see how much to Mavs rolled with him, but also how terrible they were without him. But the Rose story, calculators and stats aside, is just too amazing to pass up unrewarded by the league.
You must have me confused with someone else, I have never been to Chicago.
[whispers] I sexually assaulted Scottie Pippen in 1997.
by DocPepper on Mar 28, 2011 12:50 PM EDT reply actions
*additionally, I only say this because
you use the “WHERE WOULD THEY BE WITHOUT HIM?!?” argument for Love.
You must have me confused with someone else, I have never been to Chicago.
[whispers] I sexually assaulted Scottie Pippen in 1997.
by DocPepper on Mar 28, 2011 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
http://hardwoodhype.blogspot.com/2011/03/real-impact-of-heat-effect-on-nbas-mvp.html
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 28, 2011 2:14 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Great read, thanks
by Charlieb on Mar 28, 2011 6:52 PM EDT up reply actions
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