edit: after I wrotes this, I realized "Bud" offered a similar justification, just more concise and specific with regards to the timetables of inconsistent play,  but anyways these are just my ramblings as i tried to justifty the moves and why I'm not totally against what happened, just intrigued to see what's next....

While I agree Richards and Carter werent poor leaders, more than a few times we had seen this team in the Lavy and Stevens era show up for only one period or two periods a game.  And it wasnt just our perspective, guys like Timmonen spoke out about on more than one occasion.  About how there seemed to be a lack of effort from the team on several occasions.

You cant put it all on them, but they are supposed to be the leaders of team.  I thought the inconsistent play was going to be fixed by Lavy and for a while it seemed like it was, but then the team seemed to fall back on that bad habit.

I dont know what the organization's true motivation was.  I feel like there was conflict with Richards and Lavy and with Pronger and Richards.  I think Pronger wanted to speak up more, but didnt want to step over Richards.  I feel like while Lavy was okay with Richards and Carter as leaders he wasnt a big fan either.  Again I'm not in the locker room so this is all just my speculative b.s.

I feel like this was the progression…. Flyers make known that they want Bryz.  Flyers try to sell other assets.  Other teams don’t buy and instead begin making offer after offer for Carter. Homer has no choice but to listen.  Some teams that picked up on the rumored troubles with Richards, decide what the hell and take shots for him as well.  Offers for both too good, not to consider, at least in my opinion.  So he goes to Lavy and asks here’s what we’re being offered, now tell me does this team need Mike and Jeff? 

I think Lavy messed up with the goalies, but I still trust his overall judgement, and if he believed Richards and Carter were that vital as players and leaders, they would still be here.

Let me say I am a big fan of Richards, not so much Carter, but thanks to BSH I understand his value. I wanted neither traded, but now that they have been, seeing the return, I am okay with the moves that were made.  I just feel like if the organization absolutely felt they needed them, they wouldn’t have been traded.  But they didn’t, the felt they had a chance to sell high on both players with teams banging down their door with offers b/c of Bryz and they took it. Looking at getting Simmonds, Schenn, Couturier, Voracek, and 2 picks for both players, I think the return was very good.

I don’t know who you can really blame for the inconsistency of play period to period and game to game, but I don’t think it was the goaltending and they changed coaches once already with the Richards and Carter regime, so they felt this was the next move spurred by the trade inquiries created by Bryz and cap space.  When Richards and Carter are on top of their game I think they are both amazing.  But contrary to what some think I don’t think either give their best all the time and I dont think either was ready for the leadership roles put on them by the Flyers. That's the organizations fault, but once it's been given and the contracts and annointments have been had, can you just strip  them of those leadership duties and keep on them on the team without the lockerroom suffering, apparently the Flyers opinion was that if they wanted leadership change, that meant no choice but a trade.  Although I think goaltending and cap space was still the catalyst of all of it 

It’s easy to put together a highlight reel of either one and say see they are awesome and they tried all the time.  But I’ve seen enough games where we’ve wondered where Richards and/or Carter have been all period or all game. 

In the wake of this happening we have been quick to remember only the best of Carter and Richards, and forget that during their time here it’s not like we constantly celebrated them every night either. Again it’s easy to cut together a highlight reel and assume it was like that all the time when it wasn’t.  Does that mean they deserved to be booted, I don’t know.

I really don’t have a strong opinion either way, it’s more wait and see and intrigue with me, I’m just trying to find a justification for why it happened. Perhaps the Flyers are searching for accountability and they felt they weren’t getting it with Richards and Carter. 

They’ve gotten their “number 1” goalie, they changed perhaps what they’ve perceived was a problem with player leadership.  Now it’s squarely on Lavy and veterans Pronger and Timmonen to lead.  If the same problems arise then my guess is even more changes will come.

Usually I like to be more concise and together with this kind of write up, but with a move like this, the only way I can get my thoughts out is to ramble.  The Flyers felt they were expendable, if they didnt feel that way they would still be here. 

I trust the judgement of an organization that has provided the history of winning the Flyers have. Then again consistent winning hasnt translated to winning of Stanley Cups.... and there's the catch.... and why I have no idea if this was the right move or not, I'm just going to hope. 

The problem with moving Gagne as I see it, is we could really end up burnt badly on wingers.  I'm not sure if Gagne can net any significant top of the line winger or even a decent winger that a team would be willing to part with for Gagne.  And if that's the case and all Gagne becomes is a salary dump to clear room for guys like Carcillo (ugh) and Powe.

Then here's the nightmarish wing scenario:

Carcillo-Richards-Carter

Leino-Briere-Hartnell

JVR-Giroux-Powe

Lappy-Betts-Shelley

Now ive before said Im perfectly fine with the 3rd and 4th line like that.  And i still am. The problem is when you step back and you look at the situation you have, it's Carcillo, Powe and Shelley all on wings regulary, not any kind of platoon. They would each have to be out there all the time.  And i dont care for that at all.

Which is why I still think they should look at what Carter can get you.  Carter is already a great scorer (at least in the regular season) and still has a lot of upside and is young. So I understand the problem with parting with him.  However Carter can net you much more in return for Gagne, filling out the lines and still clear cap space.

For example the headine of the post: Carter for Dustin Brown and Wayne Simmonds.

The crux is would the Kings do it?  In one breath do they really want to give up a proven winger in Brown and a potentially very good one in Simmonds.  It would have to be two factors.

1) Getting their hands on Carter and locking him down.  Ultimately acquiring Jeff Carter is a plus no matter what.

2) Being able to build around Carter and Kopitar as your franchise centers has to be enticing.  And while they would be taking on Carter's 5 mil contract. they would be unload around 3.4 mil in cap space, so thats only taking on about 1.6 million. And they have I believe currently 17 million under the cap - so thats still plenty to use to build around Kopitar and Carter.

Why the Flyers would do it?

Obviously if you're giving up a guy like Carter you want solid return and an immediate impact. Dustin Brown and Wayne Simmonds are both right wings, which is exactly what they need.  Acquiring these two guys would in my mind be equal for Carter. In the present they totally round out what would be a ridiculous offense.  As far as the future. Dustin Brown has a very nice contract - 3.3 mil around there for the next 3 years.

And Wayne Simmonds is very cheap this season, he would be due a raise, but it would probably be only in the 2-3 mil range, and the Flyers are going to have move either Hartnell or Briere's contract next offseason no matter what if they intend to keep a guy like Ville Leino and start making room for Giroux.  So I would hope the cap space would be there to keep him.  And that would be when Gagne's contract would be up as well, so at that point if we kept Gagne through the end of his contract he would either have to be willing to take a discount or it would be up to him to walk away or not.

Also the trade nets you i think somehwere in the vicinity of 1.5 mil + in cap space. You wouldnt need Carcillo (not that we do anyway), more importantly you wouldnt need to worry about making room for Powe.  That's enough cap space to sign either Nabokov or Turco.  And if you move Boosh's contract, then maybe you can still keep Powe, but if not, not a big deal.

Here's what you're looking at if that trade were to happen:

Gagne-Richards-Brown

Leino-Briere-Hartnell

JVR-Giroux-Simmonds

Lappy-Betts-Shelley

two word come to mind: balance and electrifying. plus with the defense and say Nabokov in net.  i like those odds.


I know a lot of people here want Bobby Ryan. But I dont think Carter for Ryan is even up for us.  Unless the Kings are willing to part with Simmonds for just Gagne - which would solve the cap space problem. And we move Carter separately to the Ducks for Ryan and 2 or 3 picks. But I dont see the Flyers moving both Carter and Gagne at once