I do not mean to think that I am so special I should make a celebrated singluar performance of rosterbating, but I wanted to bring up a point I felt of importance.  For all the Beltran, Pence, Rasmus, and Upton rumors one may desire, I think Wren would make the biggest impact by doing the same thing he did last year, solving two needs with one trade.  I feel our primary needs our:

Potential Upgrade in Center or Short

Right Handed Bench Bat

RH Relief

Because I listed three needs, that does not mean it would take three players.  The braves have enough depth in the minor leagues to where they can make a trade such as we did last year, or back in 2008 when we got will ohman and omar infante.  Here is just a list of potential Combos we could go after...

Infante and Nunez from Florida

Spilborghs and Belisle/Betancourt from Colorado

Denorfia and Qualls from San Diego

Rajai Davis and Rauch, Fransisco, Frasor from Blue Jays

Crisp (Switchhitter) and Wurtz from Oakland

These are some worthy combos to look at.  Of course, if the Braves want to make a splash, and at least insert a default answer for CF and veteran reliever for next year, go ahead and deal for Upton and Farnsy from the Rays and be done with it. 

Wow, It has been a while.  Few, if any of you, probably do not remember me, but I have been a longtime reader of Talking Chop.  Needless to say, the site has grown at a great rate, and I love all the reads that show up here.  And at this time of year, it is a great source of news.  I am like any other here who thinks the trade deadline is like Christmas.  Especially with the Braves now in consistent contention again, it’s exciting to read all the speculation (and in the case of Lowe, would wish it would become a reality.)  After reading some blogs on potential moves the braves may make, it got me to thinking about some trends and patterns we have seen from Frankie in the past.  As a result, I decided to put together a little piece I like to call the Wrendeal timeline.

Disclaimer: This is truly done mostly from memory, so for the sake of accurate information over my wounded pride, please add corrections where needed.

The Unofficial and Unedited* Wrendeal Timeline

World Series 2007: Edgar Renteria to the Tigers for Jair Jurrjens and Gorkys Hernandez

I remember being in my management class in college with my laptop, trying to prevent myself from dozing off.  So, like any good student, I got to MLBTR to see how the offseason was starting out, and this little gem popped up.  Edgar was coming off one of the best years of his career, but after Teixerarmageddon, Renteria went down with a sprained ankle in August, and that gave Yunel Escobar his stage to show.  Escobar did more than show, as he proved to be a good young shortstop.  As a result, knowing the braves needed to get younger in their staff, Frank Wren sold high on Renteria and got two young prospects.  At the time Jurrjens actually a big leaguer, but Gorkys was thought to be the bigger catch.  Well, as time as shown us, the truths were reversed, and Frankie scored a big EPIC with his first Wrendeal.  Renteria has declined since (despite his 2010 WS MVP).  Gorkys seemed to halt in his developments, and was later traded to the pirates in 2009.  Luckily, Jurrjens has had some up and downs, but has been the ace of our staff this year, and proved to be a very good first catch for Wren.

Offseason 2007: Jose Ascanio to the Cubs for Omar Infante and Will Ohman

Going into the Winter Meetings of 2007, Wren knew that he had a good team in place for a potential playoff run, but also knew that he could use some more depth.  With that knowledge, he put focus on the bench and bullpen, and while not a blockbuster, did very well to address both areas with one trade.  Ascanio was one of our better pitching prospects at the end of 2007,  as he was very young, but had shown glimpses of dominance, being our version of Arodys back in 2007.  However, many questioned if he was better in the bullpen than the rotation, and since we had RHP bullpen depth, he was a tradable piece.  As a result, Ohman and Infante, having just been traded to the cubs four weeks earlier, came to the Braves.  I would score this as another victory for Wren.  Ascanio stayed with the cubs till 2009, never reaching his potential, and caught on with the Pirates, whom he has made some appearances with. Ohman actually proved to be one of the better LOOGYs in 2008, and left via free agency, as has since been with multiple organizations.  Infante was the real find, as he became one of the best utility men in baseball, perhaps even preventing Wren from having to make unnecessary trades from 2008-2010.  He got an all-star nod, and played has a regular last year, before becoming a trade piece himself to get Uggla.

Deadline 2008: Mark Teixera to the Angels for Stephen Marek and Casey Kotchman

Well, in a year's timeframe, we turned Beau Jones, Matt Harrison, Salty, Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz into Casey Kotchman and Stephen Marek.  Yes, I know, I tear up for a second as well.  Not to get another debate started, due to injuries, 2008 was not turning out as the braves had hoped, so Teixera, as in 2007, because the biggest prize to catch.  There were talks of Boston being in the Mix and Youk coming our way, but it wound up being the Angels.  Kotchman was showing glimpses of his potential, and Marek was a good relief prospect.  Teixera went on to the Angels and had a great showing before leaving for the Yankees in Free Agency.  Kotchman came to the braves for a year and two months, and left a lot to be desired, never becoming a reliable option.  He then went to the Mariners, and finally to the Rays, where he perhaps has fulfilled some promise.  Marek has performed well as a Brave, but will not be reliable until next year because of TJ surgery earlier this year. 

2008 Offseason: John Gilmore, Brent Lillibridge, Tyler Flowers, and Sergio Someone to the White Sox for Javy Vazquez and Boone Logan

After 2008, the braves needed pitching.  Smoltz and Glavine were done, and Huddy had TJ surgery in August. Heading into the 2009 season, Wren's priority number one was getting a reliable pitching staff.  As a result, he wanted to find a guy with ace potential who would also be durable.  He found the answer in Javy Vazquez.  After the 2008 season, if I am correct, since 2000, Vazquez was second in innings pitched and second in K's.  He had run into some rough luck when going to and from the American League, but many believed he still had the talent to dominate.  And did he ever! An under 3 ERA and some Cy consideration later, Javy was a great find for the Braves, and a major reason we almost made the playoffs. Logan actually pitched a few innings for the Braves, and has been a Loogy-lite for the yanks.  While we did give up some talent, none of the prospects have proven a major loss.  Lillibridge has played an Infante role for the ChiSox the past two years, while flowers is their catcher of the future.  I have not heard Gilmore's name since this trade, and figure he probably has halted his progression since he was never brought up in the Chisox's 3b mix heading into this year.  I did not know the last name of the Sergio pitcher, only that he was a low level lefthander I believe, and so he was not Sergio Santos.

June 2009: Jeff Locke, Charlie Morton, and Gorkys Hernandez to the Pirates for Nate Mcclouth

Another area of question heading into 2009 was centerfield.  Jordan Schafer had a great spring training, and won the job out of the gate.  Many thought stardom was on the rise when he homered in his first at bat, but two months later, despite above average defense, no production was being found at the plate.  As a result, Wren went out and got Mcclouth, a young guy signed to a decent contract coming off a 20-20 gold glove season.  In this case, this find was much better in words than the player himself.  While performing decent overall in 2009, McClouth has been a disappointment from 2010 on.  His defense never was gold glove caliber, and just never found consistency with the bat.  As a result, two years later, at this trade deadline, we find ourselves in the same place. The silver lining is that we did not give up any real value.  Gorkys is now minor league fodder, and Morton seems to be a Quad A pitcher.  Locke has been decent to solid, never taking that huge step forward, but has a chance to work into the Pirates rotation in 2012.

July 2009 Frenchy to the mets for Ryan Church

And so The French Natural's era ends.  Frenchy had all the tools, but never the attitude it seemed to put it all together.  After two year of frustration, the Braves needed some production out of the outfield, so they sent Frenchy to the mets for veteran Ryan Church.  Frenchy produced the same for the Mets as he did for the Braves, and then was traded to the Rangers in 2010.  He actually has done well for the royals, if a .308 OPB is considered well.  Church did as expected for the Braves in 2009, and we let him go after the season.  He has bounced around with the Pirates and the Dbacks since then.

July 2009: Casey Kotchman to the Redsox for Adam Laroche

Hat tip for the Exclusions.  For the third year in a row, the braves needed an answer for a lack of 1b production.  As a result, we went back to our former answer to the question.  Adam Laroche, having been traded from the Pirates to the Redsox six games earlier, became a brave for the second time.  The redsox felt Kotchman had a better bat off the bench, so they traded Laroche for him straight up.  Adam has been known for heating up as the season goes along, but this time he was one of the better hitters in baseball.  His bat proved vital to our late season push, and even though we missed the playoffs, Adam Laroche did more than his part.  In the offseason, because of the payroll shedding, the braves were afraid of offering Laroche arb.  He eventually went to play for the dbacks, and then got a multiyear deal with the Nats.  He is currently out for the season with a torn labrum.

Offseason 2009: Javy Vazquez and Boone Logan for Melky Cabrera, Arodys Vizcaino and, Mike Dunn 

A year after getting the pitching he needed, Wren's 2009 offseason was about shedding salary while getting value for pitching.  Vazquez had a year and 12 mill left on his contract, and while all wanted to see Lowe go, Vazquez was eventually the odd man out.  The thing is, the Yankees probably regret this one.  Javy bombed in the Bronx for a second time, and while melky did the same for the Braves, Dunn was a great bullpen piece in 2010.  At the time, a lot of folks were not too excited about our return, but I remember a specific tweet from one Kevin Goldstein, " Anyone not considering Arodys Vizcaino as the catch of the deal for the Braves is misjudging entirely" (loose translation).  Boy, was he right.  Vizcaino was a great find, as his stock has only risen since, and he may  be our answer for the overworked bullpen. 

Offseason 2009: Rafael Soriano to the Rays for Jesse Chavez

This again was a cost cutting move.  Soriano accepted arb right at midnight before the 2009 deadline, so Wren had to find someone to take on Soriano, and his full salary.  This deal was unexpected, so thus the return was less than desirable.  Raffy went on to be a stud for the Rays, finally getting his big payday from the yanks.  Jesse Chavez was a member of the Braves for a short time, and really did not produce well for us.  He was later traded to the Royals.

All Star Break 2010:  Yunel Escobar and Jo Jo Reyes to the Blue Jays for Alex Gonzalez, Tim Collins, and Tyler Pastornicky

I must admit, this is the only trade on here that I regret.  I was on the bandwagon last year that Yunel needed to go, but I do feel our team would be better if we still had Escobar.  While Gonzo did have 17 homeruns before the break last year, he has come back down to earth in the year since.  A positive spin is his reliable defense and clubhouse presence, and we also got some decent prospects in Collins and Pastornicky.  Escobar has regained his 2009 form, and was rewarded with a recent extension.  Reyes finally ended his winless streak, and really is rotation depth for Toronto.  Collins was with the Braves for two weeks, and perhaps Pastornicky will allow for us to forget about Escobar in time, as he has put up solid double A numbers.

Deadline 2010:  Tim Collins, Gregor Blanco, and Jesse Chavez to the Royals for Kyle Farnsworth and Rick Ankiel

Well, we went after depth again, and we went to a reliable source.  Ole Dayton Moore has been known to love current and former braves prospects, so we went with an option that was not a blockbuster, but gave us needed options for CF and the bullpen.  All in all, we traded Collins for a playoff win.  Blanco was never considered a part of the Braves future plans, and neither was Chavez.  Farnsworth gave us some quality innings, while Ankiel played decent defense.  However, it was Ankiel’s homer and farnsy’s save that will be remembered from the Game 2 of the 2011 NLDS.

August 2010: Robinson Lopez and Two Lower Level arms to Cubs for Derrek Lee

This trade was actually a result of a failed signing.  We paid Troy Glaus 2 million to carry us in May, and then after that he became an after thought, despite a gutsy double play turn in our game 2 victory.  As a result, Wren traded some young pitching depth to get a veteran presence in Lee.  Lee was hurting himself, and while struggling with the Cubs, actually did decent for the Braves.  He left in free agency to join Baltimore, but seems to be on the decline.  After four consecutive years after the first departure of Laroche  and trading for a 1b at each trade deadline, the Braves handed the Keys to Freddie Freeman, who has more than answered the call in his first year.

Offseason 2010:  Kyle Coefield to the Chisox for Linebrink

After the 2010 playoff run, the Braves had a lot to be excited about for 2011.  One of those areas was our young bullpen, which has more than delivered.  However, with the retirement of Billy Wagner, Wren knew he needed a good veteran reliever and he went and got that in Linebrink.  Coefield was a decent young arm, but was expendable because of our pitching depth.  Linebrink has been OK in 2011, and will likely head for FA at the end of the year.

Offseason 2010: Omar Infante and Mike Dunn for Dan Uggla

It’s ironic that the last trade on this list was the answer to the biggest need during Wren’s tenure, a right handed power source.  Infante and Dunn were coming off years in which they likely played over their heads, and Wren decided to sell high to get the much needed Uggla, whom was then signed to a 5 year 62 million dollar extension.  While Uggla has definitely played less than desirable this year, he has heated up as of late and he does lead the team in homeruns.   Infante and Dunn have been decent for the Marlins, and while the returns so far have not been that great, I think this is the move that will pay off more and more as the season continues.

So there you have it, the History of the Wrendeal.  I must say, Frankie has done ok in his deals.  The only real regrettable one was trading away yunel in my opinion.  Furthermore, we have not really given up any prospects whom have done great in the majors, and only Rafeal and Yunel have performed better after being traded.  Wren has done a great job in filling needs with trades, sometimes even killing two birds with one stone.  Whether it be the scouts and others who deserve more credit, my assessment is Wren, even while trading more frequently than most GMs, has shown some shrewdness in his Wrendeals, so I am confident any soon trades and future trades will be of the same caliber.  Go BRAVOS

Oh, and I cannot end without given my opinion possible moves this year.  I really think that Wren should go the same route he did last year, getting an OF and a RH bullpen piece and not have to give up a top prospect in order to make the team better.  Here are some combos I was thinking of that might work:

Denorfia and Qualls from the Padres

Spilborgs/Wiggington and Belisle/Betancourt from the Rockies

Rauch/Frasor and Rajai Davis from the Bluejays

Balfour/Ziegler and Crisp from the A’s

Nunez and Infante from the Marlins

Just some Ideas.  So what are yall’s thoughts?

What about this?

Continue reading this post »

Obviously, the fact that Jordan Schafer, who has not homered since the 3rd game of the season, leads our OFs with a .660 OBP shows that a change needs to be made.  In  my opinion, the braves do not need to mortgage the future for a guy like Holliday, and they do not need to take on a whole bunch of salary with a Dye or Maggs. 

The silver lining to this current situation is that the braves do not have to trade for a stud middle of the order bat in order for a trade to be beneficial. They need to focus on players who would provide an upgrade to our team, and since our situation is so dire right now, these players are ones we do not have to trade elite prospects for. A guy like Mark Derosa, a solid regular but by no means a gamechanger, would be a difference maker on our team because of how bad our OFs have been.  My name in the hat would be Ryan Spilborghs.  Yes, not a lot of power, but he makes solid, productive contact, can play all three OF postions, can show some speed, and probably is expendable.  I think we could possibly use jo-jo as a starting point to get him.

I do not mean to add to the minute-by-minute rosterbation attempts and trade attempts, I just know that now is the time to get our situation some help.  Obviously, Derosa is someone who could provide that help, and I wanted to add Spilborghs as a possibilty.  Who else could the braves go after that are in the same mold as Spilborghs and Derosa, players who are utilitymen or partimers on their current teams but could provide great benefit to our team.  Another guy I would love is Ben Zorbrist, but know that he is much less likely to be available.

I have been supporting the notion that the braves should trade for another young starter for a few months know simply because I would like to take Jurrjens and Hanson and combine them with another young arm with potential so that we can have a nice base for our staff heading into next decade.  Furthermore, I think right now is the best time to make this type of move so that we can combine some pitchers in their prime with the young offensive talent we will have arriving in Atlanta.

While this is a focus of mine for the braves, it really is apparent that right now, as many of us know, young pitching really is the key to sustained success.  I mean, look at last years surprises.  The Rays were built up by young pitching (Garza, Shields, Kazmir), the Angels where the best team in baseball largely because of young pitching (Sanders and Santana), and the twins were right there the entire way because of pitchings, as were the dodgers.   This years darkhorses, the Giants, Reds, and perhaps A's, are all there because of the young pitching they have established.

My biggest point is that when you have the Yankees, the Mets, the Cubs, and The Red Sox all having their big spending spree, it makes a lot of people discouraged about baseball since they have feel only  a few teams will compete for a title.  However, I actually find the sport of baseball more intriguing now than ever.  I am going to love watching the Rays and Yanks duking it out again, and also watching the A's, Twins, Reds, and Giants using the young talent they developed to be the catalyst for their success.  

This simple reason is what makes baseball so great.  There are so many different ways for teams to have success.  You can spend wads of money, have timely hitting, put together a great bullpen, have a great defense, play smallball, rely on the farm, etc.  While this post is meant to point out that a core of young pitching seems to be the shrewd way to develop a team nowadays, it seems that every team has the ability to put together two or three ways of success and have a chance.  I mean, while you do have the Rays and Pirates in the majors, the Rays are there to show you that anyone truely does have a chance.  The question is whether or not you have the patience to let it all come together, or do you blow it all up when it seems to not be working on the first try.   For the Braves, I applaud wren's efforts to let the young talent emerge, as this seems to be the way to not only generate success, but maintain it.  With that being said, my only suggestion is now for the braves to generate another avenue towards getting a young arm to have a very bright future.

I know that many have mention all the obvious options that are still available out there, and the Lowes, Sheets, Garlands, Wolfs, and so on have their strengths and weaknesses.  However, I know that Perez has been mentioned on this site before, but I never have really gotten a feel for what the posters on this site would t hink of a perez signing.  

Obviously, the guy has his strengths and weaknesses as well.  He is a great example of a guy who either can be dominant or completely off from start to start.  It seems as if sometimes he has great control, the next start he can use his wildness to be effective, and then the next start can be all over the place.  

Despite these obvious concerns, Perez is just 27.  And, while i do think that his delivery is a bit of a concern going into the future, he has maintained a pretty good health record so far.  Furthermore, the guy can be dominant when he wants, as we all know from facing him throughout his career with the mets, and to throw in the fact that I think he would have a better defense behind him than he had in New york, I think he could put in some pretty effective years.

From a team perspective I would support the signing on two fronts. The first being that given his age, Perez would remain a viable middle of the rotation NL starter at the least throughout our resurgence towards being a contender again, and could develop into a top of the rotation option.  Also, by signing him, it represents a shift in the Braves philosophy, as we would be dealing with a Boras client in terms of a FA signing for the first time in a long time.  I personally think that Boras is nothing but a negative influence on the game, but if he is going to continue expanding his client list, then it makes sense that if the braves have the money to spend, they should at least start somewhere with Boras to keep all options on the table in the future.

Right now, Perez is claiming he wants a 5-year-65 million dollar deal.  There is no way in hell that I would offer that too him.  I think that Perez is going to be one of the FA who is effected most by the economy and the fact that Major league teams are valuing consistent production over potential more than ever when it comes to free agents, simply because each team has potential at a cheap price in its young players.  With this being said, If I were Wren, I would make an offer around the 4-year, 45 million dollar mark.  Perez has shown the production to earn at least 10 mill a year on the market.

My personal feeling is that I would not lose any sleep either way we go, but I would lean towards at least making a valiant effort toward signing him.  I think he has the most future potential of any available starter outside of sheets, and perez comes without the constant injury concerns.

What are yalls thoughts? That is what I am most intersted in concerning this subject.

5IP 3H 1 RUN 1BB 8K

He did it in around 80 pitches, and I believe with a 53 to 27 strike to ball ratio, Mesa is up on Phoenix 4-2 in the 6th, yet another dominating performance by Hanson...

Meanwhile, Tyler FLowers went is 0-3 so far, and matt young is 1-4 today in what may be his last game wearing a braves uni as he is eligible in the Rule 5 draft....

Van pope is 1-3 with a run

Jon Heyman over at SI.COM said that the rangers are again shopping Vincente Padilla and Kevin Millwood and their 2 year, 12 million per contracts.  The very bad part is, he has the braves as a team that is interested....My response......

Oh god no!

I hope there is no way in hell that the braves are considering trading for Millwood or Padilla. I can understand the thinking, that we could get a nice veteran piece for a low prospect price if we take on their salary because they have been disappointments, but it just makes no sense. A bargain trade for Braves does not consist of bringing in Padilla or Millwood for two years because they would cost less than Burnett or Lowe would. A bargain trade is when you get a valuable asset to your team at a reasonable price. If the braves are going to target a pitcher with the type of price tags that tha Padilla and Millwood have to offer, I would much rather go talk to KW about Javy Vazquez, as he has the health and production track record to at least kinda verify his price tag.

STAY AWAY FROM TEXAS PITCHERS WREN, STAY AWAY

I know that alot of commenters on this site seem to like the Adam Dunns and Pat Burrells of the world.  I think it is more of commenters showing appreciatation for these players because while they may struggle is some of the statistical areas that are the most glorified (average, k's), they excel in the overlooked stat department that are very vital to the game (runs, OPS, OBP).  With that being said, it is obvious that a 3 to 4 year commitment at 2-5 million per for one of these players is could still be tough to swallow, not jus because of the offensive liabilities they can be at times, but the even bigger defensive sore thumbs they are the majority of the time.

With all this being said, I am going to echo Mark Bowman and a few other people who I have heard mention this name as a nice bargain trade target: Nick Swisher.

I was reading over at MLBTR, the internet megahub that it is today, and I ran across a pretty cool opportunity.  Some writers out of new york are thinking that the Yanks may just have gotten Swisher as a prelude to trading him to an NL team.  My thinking is that this might not be that far off, as they are in a position of leverage with him in terms of if they get Tex or not.

I had noticed that Swisher had been mentioned as a possible trade target of the braves via trade, and it seems that the Braves could still have a chance at him.  I, for one, would not at all mind the acquistion of Swisher.  I think he would not cost that much because of the down year he had last year, even though I think the yanks will want more than the joke of a bargain price that they got him for from the white sox.  With that being said, I would love swisher's on base ability and versatility to hit in numerous spots in the lineup on our roster.  Beyond that, unlike Burrell and Dunn, and the reason why Swisher might be even more valuable, is that he has the ability to be versatile defensively and not be a liability.  I think that if the braves can acquire swisher for a reasonable prospect package, and at half the monetary value of the next three or four years it would take to get Burrell or Dunn, then it would definately be a smart path for Wren to take to acquire him.

My only wrench in all these plans is how we might match up with the yankees. Anybody got an idea of how we might match up, and what is yalls general opinion of swisher? One hindrance to his talent is the fact that I have heard mixed reports on the type of teammate and attitude he could bring to the clubhouse, but the braves and Bobby Cox have had a sister of having the ability to kind of blanket those concerns in the past by taming these certain types of personalities (Gary Sheffield etc.).

I was reading alot of the comments over at MLBTR, and alot of the Posters were talking about how excited they were that we were focusing on free agents because we were going to sign two big names on the free agent market.....and that got me to thinking.

Next year, in 2009, the braves have already shown what type of focus the team wants to have, and that is for the long term.  That is why I think our Front Office wants to view next year as the first step in the process toward being in contention, and are not going all in for it.  We have two major advantages going for us that should allow for us to not take as long as it would take other franchises to get back to being contenders....We have a deep quality farm system, and already have some nice young talent who has shown major league success.

With all this being said, my concern is that the braves in now way should sign two of these 5 pitchers this offseason as many fans want to happen....

AJ Burnett

Derek Lowe

Ryan Dempster

Ben Sheets

Oliver Perez

The reason that we should not sign two of these five is two fold....for one, each pitcher comes with legit red flags, and signing two would take up 30 million of our available 40 million, and we would then have only ten million to sign a powerhitter, Smoltz, a left reliever, Glavine, hampton, and so on.

If we sign one, hopefully Burnett at 15 mill per, or Lowe or Dempster at 13 mill per, we would then have a nice one-two combo in that pitcher and JJ.  We would then have hudson coming back in August and could ease him in as September and the Offseason came around, and would have the pitcher we sign and Hudson and JJ to make a nice foundation for our rotation in 2010 and beyond.

Here is my suggestion as far the second pitching option that we want to feel, and that would be via a trade for a young, controllable pitcher with upside who has shown glimpses of success in the majors.  I am not Considering the Peavys, Vazquezs, Arroyos, or Harangs of the world has they come with red flags and high price tags as well.  nor the Cains, Greinkes, or gutheries, as they would cost too much in prospects,

As a result, here is my suggestions as targets for the braves to go after in terms of a trade that would help our team.....

Jonathan Sanchez

Chris Young

Ian Snell

Jeff Francis

Paul Maholm

Jesse Litsch

Clay Bucholz

Justin Masterson

Andy Sonnastine

Edwin Jackson

Brian Bannister

Nick Blackburn

Glen Perkins

Jeff Neiman

Homer Bailey

Dustin Mcgowan

Shaun Marcum

Jeremy Bonderman

These are just some suggestions as too who we could go out and add to our rotation, as they could prove us with a number 3 in 09 and then add quality depth in 10 once the braves are ready to make some serious runs again.  We could also have the ability to bring Hanson along at a comfortable pace, and let JoJo and Morton have mroe time to develop at triple A.

Just wanted to see yalls suggestions about who we could target besides the above mentioned examples, and what yall thought of this idea.  We would have the money to effectively answer more of our other needs for a few years, and it never hurts to save mone for expected arbitrations and hopeful extensions as we head into the future.

As has been noted, I have been doing a lot of brainstorming on what we potentially could do to improve our team this offseason, with my goal being to get the most value out of the least costs as far as a team strategy.  With that in mind, I really think one good strategy will be to sign juan rivera.  I understand that his skill set has only resulted in one solid year, ala Ryan Ludwick, and that 2006 was that year and was three years in the past.  However, my point is this, say we can sign Rivera to a year year deal with a mutual or player option for 2010, and the deal were say worth five million, it actually would be a very nice move to make.  Here are the reasons why....

We would have a nice option to put in left in the case that we could not make a move for a more proven bat via a trade.

It would put us in an even better position in trading KJ....we would now be able to more comfortably keep in unless were blown away with an offer because we would not have to focus on the need for a right-handed power hitting outfielder as much. 

It would give us more reason to shop Frenchy to see if some team would be willing to offer us a no-brainer type offer, as we would know have a replacement to put in right for francouer.

I really do believe that Rivera would be a much better route as a value signing than Burrell or Dunn, as Rivera would cost around 10 million less per year while probably putting up comparable production.

If we can sign rivera, that would give us nearly 40 million left to focus solely on pitching, and I could actually see us perhaps being a player for the higher end talent, like Sabathia or Burnett.

Just was wondering what yall's thoughts were on this and if yall had any other bargain type free agent signings that could open up some options for us.

It was a big brainstorming cluster**** lol. I guess i was really trying to find a good mixture of what type of moves the braves should make.  My biggest point are these, and just wanted to see what yall thought....

When it comes to our middle infielders, I think KJ and Yunel are at peak value in terms of what they could bring back in a trade.  I think that the braves should definitely consider at least seeing what they could get in return for these two.  If the braves do trade yunel and get a couple of questionable positions answered, or use yunel to get a stud, then I actually think the smart thing would be to sign furcal.  My reasoning is that furcal would probably be a better value signing per year at 15 million than lowe, burrell, dunn,etc would be.  

Another point that I had was that if it seems that we are not going appease peavy or the padres anytime soon, why not see what we can do to get cain.  I honestly would not mind cain at 20 million less over the next five years, and I think it would cost less in terms of talent to get him.  

Finally, on the idea of francouer, my cause is to use him to gain a young controllable pitcher, something of much value and need for any team trying to get back into contention.  

I know I contradicted myself a lot in my previous post, so forgive me on that.  But my biggest point is that we could use some of our young talent to get more proven contollable young talent, which could put us in an even better position for making a run sooner rather than later when some of our young prospects are ready to make an  impact in the majors.

I must honestly say, that I have never felt the way I do right now about the Tennessee Volunteer football program.  I have never had a feeling of such desperation and hopelessness, while still feeling excited at the same time.  I am not going to go into a big long discussion about all the things that are wrong with our team, but I must say there is one glaring problem that stands out....

I attended the third vols game of my young life yesterday, and that is where my feelings hit the forefront.  I have never seen a Vols team that just seemed so lost and undisciplined, while at the same time seeming to have no sense of urgency to change their fortunes.  As a result, I must honestly say that Fulmer leaving is definately the right move at this point.  I do feel that he is one of those old time coaches who believes in a team first mentality and just has not been able to handle the change from team-first recruits to me first recruits.  However, while Fulmer's coaching has definately lacked the adaptive ability to be effective, I always had viewed fulmer as being a very good recruiter and bringing in talent that Tennessee could work with.  I guess my main point is that I always felt Fulmer could find the talent, but could no longer max out on that talent with his coaching ability. 

After watching yesterday's game, I can honestly admit my opinon changed a bit.  The ablity of our players was just embarassing. Wyoming's lines controlled both sides of the ball, and I am talking about a D-line that was the basis of a defense ranked 117th in the country heading into yesterday.  Furthermore, the inability of Stephens and Crompton to make consistently accurate throws, the inability of our Oline to carry out their assignments, the inability of our receivers to be aware in time to catch the ball, the inability of our backs to run up the middle, and the lack of using our size at tight end to deliever the ball over the middle just blew my mind. 

My major point is this....While it is obvious that Fulmer's coaching stlye no longer will result in the success that is expected at Tennessee, I had never fully realized that the talent we put on the field could not contend as well, no matter what coach you add to the mix.  I honestly had no idea the amount of talent we lacked, and am disappointed to say that I was wrong in many arguments that I have had with friends and colleagues about the players we have brought in over the past few years.  I

I love Phil for what he brought to our program and the peaks that he led us too, but I have never felt more frustrated and confident in saying we should have moved on without him five years ago.  It is one thing with you have the talent and not the right coaching as the reason you are not succeeding, that can be changed quickly with the right coach.  It is a completely different and more crippling scenerio when you have the wrong coaching and a depletion in the talent level at a college program, as it will take much longer to restore to get back to expectations. 

I honestly thought we were in a position where we were like a ship that was just straying off course and needed a new captain.  I am sad to say we look more like a ship that has completely sunk and needs to start building a new one as quick as possible. 

With all this in mind, our administration must be great emphasis on hiring our next head coach. Do not target those you feel will just use our program as a way to get to the next step in two or three years.  Target one who will show the commitment and passion toward getting the vols back to the level they need to be, and will work hard to maintain meeting the expected level of success for years to come.

I had suggested a trade a few days ago, with us getting Dye and Vazquez from the White sox has the point of my post.  However, I thought a lot about what the braves should do over the past few days, and to be honest, I think the best thing for us to do would be to go after young controllable players.   I understand that we have some good amounts of money to spend, and that luxary allows for us to improve our team and not trade top prospects.  However, my point is why spend 16 to 17 million on a guy over 4 to 5 years who is past his prime when instead we can go get a needed piece with a player of ours who we can replace with another player.....

A good example would be our left field situation......We have seen discussions of us signing burrell or dunn to take over at that position, and it would cost us 15 or so million over 3 to 5 years to get that done....The smart thing would be to instead, as has been suggested, to trade KJ for Ludwick....Ludwick may never reach the numbers he did last year, however, compared to what he can provide on offense at the price it will take to pay him over three arbitration years, he would be more valuable than Burrell or Dunn, as Ludwick would be a more consistient hitter and not as much of a defensive liability.....So in other words, yes i would take Ludwick, Prado, and 10 million extra a year over KJ, Burrell/Dunn, and a bad contract to have to deal with in one of Burrell's/Dunn's case

My next approach.....Facing the giants......This team has exactly what every team wants, a surplus of controllable pitching.... the funny thing is that they also have a great need.....and that is close to major league ready position player talent.....My idea is this, if we cannot get peavy, go hard and persistient to see what it would take to get Mr. Cain....The giants probably will want positional players more than pitchers, so no worry for Hanson....Say the Braves were to offer Gorkys, Yunel, and Medlen, as medlen could provide a nice relief prospect forthe giants, and we would be able to go get cain.....We are able to have a nice young ace to pair with jurrjens, we can then take our money, as we have our needed pitcher and power bat, and go sign furcal to take over at short.....

Here is another Scenerio, say that the braves do not go get Ludwick with KJ....

Jeff Francouer to the Giants for Jonathan Sanchez

Yunel Escobar to the Twins for Delmon and Blackburn/Perkins

With these moves, we gain our cost effective, get a right fielder with more promise plus to young controllable pieces, and still have not traded away a top prospect.....If we do this, then I would not mind going out and see what we could do with our money

Such as....

Sign Furcal, trade KJ for ludwick, and sign Lowe/Burnett

or

Sign Rents for short, trade for maggs, and go hard after Dempster/Lowe or Burnett

My favorite idea is this....

Frenchy to the Giants for Sanchez

Yunel and Medlen (if needed) to the twins for Delmon and Blackburn/Perkins

KJ to the Cards for Ludwick

Sign Furcal to play short at 4 years and 50-55mill

Sign Dempster or Lowe for 4 years at 50-55 million

sign Brandon Lyon to a 2 year/ 6 mill deal

sign will ohman

Just a look at our lineup-

Furcal/Prado/Chipper/Ludwick/McCann/Delmon/Kotchman/Schafer/P

Our Staff-Dempster or Lowe, Jurrjens,Sanchez, Perkins or Blackburn,Morton

Our Bullpen: will ohman, mike gonzalez, manny acosta, Brandon Lyon, Rafeal Soriano (if healthy), Blaine Boyer, and another young reliever

This is some ideas, but I would rather go young and improve our team that way then have to spend money and wind up with bad contracts 1 to 2 years from now when our young talent will be ready to lead us into contention again

Hey everyone, new time poster here, so was just going to get the ball rolling.....Major vols fan here btw, look foward to many good talks with yall in the future.

Just wanted to get the ball rolling on the suggestions for some replacements for Fulmer.  I know that this is very early and that the process will take a while since Fulmer will be around for the remainder of the season.   However, I also think that a coach should be put in take soon so that no hard hit will be put on recruiting or towards revenue for the end of the season. 

Some things that make Tennessee still a top notch opening for some great coaching candidates are the resources that we have as far as establishing and maintaining a national powerhouse again, and the fact that our history shows we have always had the ability to get back to a wanted level after a time of brief futility. 

As a result, I will get the ball rolling on the person I would love to see considered for the job: Lane Kiffin.  He is the young offensive mind that would thrive in the SEC ala Urban Meyer, and can recruit because of the ability he showed to get what he needed while being at USC.  He also seems to know how to manage and get what he wants out of his players, as he actually did a decent job with the Raiders considering all the crap he had to deal with. My feeling is that Kiffin would give us the best ability to get the athletes we would need to compete against the rest of the SEC elite, while also getting the most out of the players that he recruited. 

Some other possibilites that may be considered would probably be the following: Mike Leach, Skip Holtz, and Chris Johnson.  Obviously, I would love to get an innovative offensive mind at the helm, and I also think that Tennessee has the program in place to attract some of the bigger names in college football.  We have the resources again in place to attract a very good name to get the job done going foward, and was just wondering where yall think we should look for our new coach.

Thoughts?

Obviously, the braves want to go after the elite in any trade they make this offseason.  Jake Peavy would definately be a nice addition to our team, as would Maggs in terms of the middle of the order bat that we need to get to anchor our lineup.  We have the goods to remain the favorite to get Peavy, we just seem to not be willing to get away from stance of not trading our top prospects.  As for Maggs, I am afraid that the tigers would want too much in terms of prospects while offering to little as far as helping pay off MAggs salary.

With that being said, Frank Wren impressed me with many of his trades so far because of how economical he was in terms of getting the parts he needed at a very fair asking price.  With that being said, here is just an idea of a trade that could be a nice alternative that could allow for us to meet the needs that we have, plus allow for us to still have money to spend while also keeping our best prospects in place....

Kelly Johnson, Tyler Flowers, Kris Medlen,

for

Javier Vazquez and Jermaine Dye

Now, my reasoning is this.  While Vazquez is not Peavy and Dye is not Maggs, they both a reasonable alternatives that would be much cheaper to acquire in terms of price and prospects.  I believe both would cost around 12 mill each over the next two years, so they would take up half the commitment of potential money we have to spend this offseason.  I feel that the short commitment and bargain price for each helps the braves because of the bang you get for the buck: While Vazquez is not a pure ace, he is a proven top of the rotation innings eater who knows hte national league.  The same goes for Dye in that he may not be a dynamic, game changing slugger, but he is a consistient producing alternative as a clean-up hitter who will provide better contact rates and better defense at a cheaper price than a dunn or burrell.  We have the ability to give up johnson because of the depth of middle infielders at the ML level, Flowers is of course blocked by McCann, and Medlen would be a swingman that Kenny Williams would covet in the same mold that he had Brandon McCarthy pitch when he was on the White Sox. 

I can understand if some our opposed to this suggestion, but my thinking is that it would be a nice alternative if our main objectives does not work out.  It helps us get two of our needs in one move, and also allows for us to keep all of our top young prospects, plus yunel.  At this pace, we could still sign dempster or lowe, and still have 10 mill or so left over to perhaps extend yunel and jurrjens, or to sign a nice reliever or veteran second baseman.  This just seems like a type of move Wren would definately be spotlighting because of the fair price of both money and prospects, and still gives us the financial flexibility we need to fill other needs and possibly extend some younger players.

Thoughts?