SB Nation User Blog: chiefsfan1384

Ideal Draft Day...In My Opinion

chiefsfan1384 — Thu, 02 Apr 2009 06:57:22 -0000

Hey I'm still working a 2AM and I had to get my mind off things so I did a mock. Tell me if you guys think this is realistic.

Trade: Waters to Buffalo for their 3rd and 7th round pick.

1. Curry (ILB, Wake) - nothing that we don't already know

3. Sidbury Jr. (OLB, Richmond) - Apparently he drew a huge crowd at his pro day, although I don't think the Chiefs were in attendence. This kid is big at 265 and he has the speed and linebacking skills to possibly be one hell of 3-4 rush linebaker.

3. Caldwell (C, Alabama) - We are going to need a good center to go up against the 3-4s of Denver and San Diego. The kid is smart, stout and can play all three interior line positions. He drops this far because of the depth of the center class.

4. Jean-Francois (DE, LSU) - I think this kid could potentially be that 3-4 end we desperately need on the roster. I was pissed that Pioli couldn't dish out at least one big contract outside of Cassel with a guy like Canty. (How many DEs do the Giants need! I bet they will win the superbowl this season)

5. Wallace (WR, Ole Miss) - It looks like we might be interested in this kid. Haley will probably want an inside receiver to replace Engram in the future and to be honest I couldn't find out if Wallace fits that bill. But, the kid is fast and he is a really good return threat.

6. L Hill (NT, Stillman) - I'm pretty sure this kid is on the Chiefs radar as well. This pick might be wishful thinking. I've seen him as high as 3 and as low as the middle of the 6th. He is a prototype 3-4 nose tackle and might be more high profile if he didn't play for Stillman, don't ask me where it is because I have no idea.

7. Allen (RG, W Missouri) - This is would be a great sleeper pick and he could eventually replace Goff someday. He is a lifelong Chiefs fan apperently and he has or had a private workout with the Chiefs. I read somewhere that he reminds people of Larry Allen the future hall of famer. I don't know where they get that, but hell lets draft him.

7. D Hill (TE, Ball St) - Since Merritt got cut for smoking weed we need another tight end on the roster. I like Hill because he might offer something as a H-back. He is one of those smaller, quicker tight ends like Watson in New England.

7. Pizotti (QB, Harvard) - Ivy League player of the year. He has a good build, he's like 6'6" 230 lbs. I know how Pioli likes those big QBs. You can't get enough QBs on your roster.

Mock Draft

chiefsfan1384 — Sat, 14 Mar 2009 22:47:23 -0000

Just playing out scenarios to see if we can fill all of our needs.

1. Crabtree (WR, Tech)

3. Wood (C, Louiville)

3. Ellerbe (ILB, Georgia) - Waters Trade to Buffalo

4. Follet (OLB, Cal)

4. A Brown (RB, NC State) - LJ Trade to Browns

5. Wallace (WR/KR, Ole Miss) - Waters Trade to Buffalo

6. Boone (RT, Ohio State) - Stock Has Fallen Off The Map

7. Allen (RG, W Missouri)

7. Dixson (NT, Miami) - Bennett Trade to Tampa

UFA. Swank (K, Wake Forest)

Defensive Front Seven Depth Chart (P is for Predator)

P Hali, Robertson, Johnston

DE McBride, Wright (DE/NT, Patriots)

WLB D Johnson, Mays

NT Tyler, Dixson

MLB Ellerbe, Felder

UT/DE Dorsey, Boone

SLB Vrabel, Follet

Offensive Line Depth Chart

LT Albert, McIntosh

LG Taylor, Niswanger

C Wood, Niswanger

RG W Smith, Allen

RT Richardson, Boone

Some Fantasy to get Our Spirits Up

chiefsfan1384 — Sun, 08 Mar 2009 00:50:03 -0000

I have been a little surprised we have not made a big splash in free agency besides the Cassel trade. It has been depressing me so I came up with a rosey scenario. We can still fill all of our holes before opening day. I know, I know, its unrealistic. But, frankley I don't care. In my head this is going is to happen.

Free Agents

McFadden (CB, Steelers), Traucher (RT, Packers), Mosley (DE, Jets), Wright (DE/NT, Patriots), M Harris (OLB, Chargers), Curtis (TE, Cowboys)

Trades

Dorsey + McIntosh to the Bengals for #6 overall

LJ to Browns for 4th rounder

#3 overall for Eagles two 2nd rounders and 4th round pick

Draft

1. Raji (NT, Boston College), Maulaluga (ILB, USC), Harvin (WR, Flordia)

3. Wood (C, Louisville)

4. Urbik (RG, Wisconsin), Follet (OLB, Cal), A Brown (RB, NC State)

5. Barnes (CB, Maryland)

6. Felder (ILB, Cal)

7. Potter (DE, Nebraska), R Davis (DE, Cal)

UFA. Swank (K, Wake Forest)

Glen Dorsey Can Play NT

chiefsfan1384 — Wed, 25 Feb 2009 00:49:15 -0000

I'm sick of people saying Glen can't be a zero technique. The guy commanded double teams all year and thats the main job of your NT. Just because he will be playing NT doesn't mean he can't get to the quarterback either. If you look at Arizona's 4-3 under Darnell Dockett (300 lbs) got to the quarterback. Jay Ratliff in Dallas (300 lbs) got to the quarterback. Also, you got guys like Ferguson in Miami who just play the position with solid technique and can get away with their 300 lbs frame. Dorsey is strong enough and he is used to this role in that at LSU his orders were to plug up the line to let the ends and linebackers reak havoc. He is a bit short and won't be batting down a lot of passes, but he is just as tall as Casey Hampton. Not to mention Dorsey can pack on a few pounds. I bet he can get up to 315-320. I'm telling you our defense could be pretty sick next year.

ROLB   Hali, Sintim (2nd round, Virginia)
RDE      A Smith (FA, Cardinals), Wright, Boone
RILB   D Johnson, Felder (6th round, Cal)
NT         Dorsey, Wright (FA, Patriots)
LILB      Crowder (FA, Dolphins), Beisal (FA Cardinals)
LDE      Tyler, McBride
LOLB    Curry (1st), Harris (FA, Chargers), D Williams

Out of those 5 free agents 4 will come cheap. Crowder would be the only expensive one. And if you bitch that I'm ignoring the O-line with these moves I think we would still have plenty of CAP space to sign guys like Jason Brown of the Ravens, Ray Willis of the Seahawks and draft a mid round guard. And yes Hali can play OLB. He's listed at 275, but in reality he is only 255. He dropped like 20 lbs last offseason and that was one of the reasons he sucked it up last year. I got him playing on the right side so Curry would be the one covering the TE. So stop freaking out about the 3-4, it looks a lot better than the front 7 we had last year.

Jeff Webb 2.0

chiefsfan1384 — Tue, 24 Feb 2009 02:34:56 -0000

I used to be one of those draft Crabtree guys and I just want to say sorry for pushing that idea. If I caused you headaches forgive me. I'm looking at how to upgrade our WR position this offseason and I'm not to fond of the free agent class. There is no one that "fits". Either they are really good, but old and will cost a lot of money. Or they suck nuts. Also, I don't want to draft one at the top of the 2nd unless Harvin falls. I don't think he will. Derrick Williams sucked it up at the combine. I'm off that band wagon. WR is going to have to go on the back burner, but I thought this move might make sense. Last year we traded M Bennett to Tampa for a 6th and an undisclosed late round pick this year. If it is a 6th I say we take Quan Cosby of Texas. He basically has the measurables of Webb, but is better. The thing about Cosby is he is 27 yrs old. If he was younger he probably would go a lot higher. I think he is mature enough to get in the starting lineup sometime in the season. He was amazing in the Fiesta Bowl if you guys caught that. The important thing is that we get an upgrade from Webb and I think this could be a good move.

Realistic Free Agents

chiefsfan1384 — Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:05:33 -0000

Antonio Smith (DE, Cardinals) - 5 technique defensive end that will help the transition to a 3-4.

Channing Crowder (ILB, Dolphins) - Another guy who will fit the 3-4. Just came off a great season (113 tackles). Expensive, but won't break the bank.

Jason Brown (C, Baltimore) - The Ravens simply can't keep all of their talent. Brown is one of the best centers in the league and he is young to boot.

Ray Willis (RT, Seahawks) - Back-up tackle for the Seahawks that started 10 games and only allowed 1.5 sacks.

Eric Wright (DE/NT, New England) - Will provide good depth on the d-line. Versatile.

Marques Harris (OLB, Chargers) - Had 2.5 sacks with limited playing time. Will be a solid back-up.

Monty Beisal (ILB, Cardinals) - Remember him? Played for Pioli in New England and Pendergast in Arizona. Good back-up and special teams player.

JJ Arington (RB, Cardinals) - Cheap, we can use him for trick plays and is a decent kick-off returner.

Tony Curtis (TE, Cowboys) - Cheap, can act as a good H-back. Merritt can't block well when he is high.

Byron Leftwich/JP Losman/Brock Berlin (QB) - We need to bring in a vetern as well as draft a young guy. These three guys seem to be the only options in my opinion. Garcia is too old, don't want to trade 1st for Cassel, Warner and Collins are going to be resigned.

This won't use up our cap especially after we cut Surtain, Huard, D Edwards and trade LJ for a conditional 3rd round pick. We need to trade Dorsey because he just doesn't fit in a 3-4. McIntosh and him to the Jags for the #8 overall in order to draft BJ Raji (NT, Boston College). Trade down from #3 w/ Eagles for their first rounders and a 4th. I want to target guys like Larry English (OLB) or Clint Sintim (OLB), Duke Robbinson (RG) or Alex Mack (C) for our two late first rounders. Shonn Greene (RB, Iowa) at the top of the 2nd. Derrick Williams (WR) and Nathan Brown (QB) in the third. Seth McRath (OLB) and Kenan Lewis (CB) in the 4th. Grahm Gano (K) in the 5th. Jasper Brinley (ILB) and Wopamo Osaisai (CB) in the 6th. And Darcel McBath (FS) in the 7th. All of this is realistic, the only hard part will be the trades.

How We Can Shift to a 3-4

chiefsfan1384 — Sat, 14 Feb 2009 22:37:29 -0000

I think Pioli will want to switch to a 3-4 because he's been drafting players to that system his whole career. There are problems though because we don't have a traditional nose tackle on the roster and our linebacking corp has absolutely no depth. I think we can have a damn good 3-4 D next year, but it is going to take a few small realistic moves and a huge deal.

1. Sign either Crowder, B Scott or Barton to play the strongside inside linebacker.

2. Sign either Canty, Olshansky or A Smith to play one of the down lineman at DE.

3. Sign Wright (NT/DE, Patriots) and M Harris (OLB, Chargers) for depth.

4. Trade Dorsey and Herb Taylor to Bengals for #6 overall pick in order to draft BJ Raji (NT, Boston College). This is the drastic move that I'm not sure would work out. By the way I want Crabtree #3 overall.

5. Draft Clint Sintom (ROLB, Virginia) at the top of the 2nd round.

6. Move McBride to a down lineman, Hali to OLB and D Johnson to LILB.

7. I think Dacus could back-up DJ, we could draft Jasper Brinkley (ILB, South Carolina) in the 6th to back-up the RILB position and I guess we have to keep Boone, Tyler and D Williams and try to fit them in the system. I think D Williams could make a decent rush outside linebacker and Boone would be fine a DE. Tyler I guess could be the 3rd string NT after Raji and Wright.

8. O yeah, hire Crennel as our D coordinatoor

A Plan

chiefsfan1384 — Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:36:00 -0000

I was stranded at home today because I have no car until tomorrow. I was extremely board and started running through stupid scenarios with the Chiefs. I thought I would share it with you guys. If your not interested in reading this whole freaking thing thats cool, but could you look at my 1st round pick and tell me what you think? It's different to say the least.

Personal

Pioli (VP Player Personal, NE): Great drafter and knows a good coach when he sees one. Need I say more. I would put money on the fact that Pioli is going to be our next GM.

Rex Ryan (Defensive Coordinator, Baltimore): Genius, plain and simple. I think he would make a great HC. I like Ryan because he can implement multiple schemes such as a base 4-3, 3-4 or my favorite a 4-6. I think he is just what the doctor ordered. I think he would bring in a great staff and probably hire one of his assistents for the DC spot. I also think he would be smart enough to retain Gaily as much as possible. I bet he would bring in a good special teams coach too.

Free Agency

Terrell Suggs (DE, Baltimore): A very likely candidate to hit the market. The Ravens have premier defensive talents sign come the offseason including Ray Lewis, Bart Scott and Landry their SS. I'm about 85% sure they will let him go and he would soon follow his DC to KC. 6 years 55 million

Jonathan Vilma (MLB, New Orleans): A talented veteran who will 100% hit the market come March. The Saints have picks they have to forfeit if they sign him to an extention. Its going to take some doe, but I think he is well worth it. He had a solid year this season and he will be 100% healthy at the start of next season. It may be unlikely, but I would like Herm to stay as the secondary coach/assistent head coach. This could help coax Vilma (he drafted him in NY), but I think Ryan would get his attention as well. By the way MLBs are not exactly bank breakers. 5 years 30 million

Karlos Dansby (WLB, Arizona): Great linebacker who got overlooked for the pro bowl this year. He is in the prime of his career and is good at both pass coverage and getting to the quarterback. However, the Cards may not let him go. My instincts tell me that they may just let him go because they have serious cap concerns and they might get his replacement for a cheaper draft pick. Once again a huge check, but nothing that will make you hurl. 6 years 38 million.

Mike Nugent (K, NYJ): Talented kicker that was drafted high by Herm in NY. We need a vet to at least compete with Barth. He was injured the whole year, but should be ready to go come training camp. 1 year 1 million.

This free agent class may seem expensive, but the Jets spent way more than this last year. They had double the players, but they gave out like $145 just in guaranteed money. Plus, we have the most cap room in the league and taking Surtain, D Edwards and LJ (as much as possible) off the books will be plenty of space to stay healthy enough to resign players in the future.

Transactions

LJ Trade: It is time to let Mr. Johnson go. He is a diva and is overpaid. We should have traded him prior to the 2007 season. Now we will have to accept the cap hit and take a mid rounder instead of a first day pick. 4th round draft pick (Browns maybe?)

Waivers: Come February many teams are going to clean house. I think this would be a good chance to pick up a decent dimeback. He may get cut because he sucks as a starter, but could be serviceable as a reserve. Fisher (CB, Detroit) could be this guy. I would also take the best offensive lineman available, but they almost always don't work out even as a reserve.

Draft

1. Taylor Mays (SS, USC): In my opinion he is the best player in the draft. He is a freak at 6'4" and runs a sub 4.4. He is the next great USC safety to come out since Troy. I know what your thinking, "We have three promising safeties!". Listen, I like Pollard, Paige and Morgan but they are not superbowl caliber safeties. I think if this occurs Pollard can be used in a 4-6 type defense and become a rover safety/linebacker. This is the list of safeties that have recently helped win their teams a super bowl since 2000: Rod Woodson, John Lynch, Rodney Harrison, Troy Polomalu, Bob Sanders and Gibril Wilson. Safeties are extremely valuable for championship football. I think Ryan will miss Ed Reed and want someone to replace him immediately. By the way I would love to trade down from 3 because it is perceived too high for a safety. I don't see it happening, but if we get to go to 8 or 9 for a 2nd I would take it and hope he falls. If this happens I would draft Josh Freeman (QB, Kansas State) with the 2nd rounder. It might happen if the Raiders or Niners panic because of a run on offensive lineman. Also, the great thing about a safety is that they are a relatively cheap position on the field and the top money won't be as high as a quarterback, defensive end or offensive tackle. O, and a little sidenote, Mays is a junior and hasn't techniquely declared yet. This could make me look like a huge jackass if he doesn't. I don't see him staying honestly, all of his buddies like Maulaluga, Cushing, Maola and Harris are coming out so I don't see why he wouldn't join the money party with them.

2. BJ Raji (NT, BC): Someone to help Dorsey stop the run. Probably the best run stopping defensive lineman in this class. Plus, if we have some 3-4 looks we could use him as a traditional nose. We could cut R Edwards to make room and Tyler would provide great depth.

3. Shon Greene (RB, Iowa): Meet our new "thunder back". I think we should make Charles the primary back in the spread, but Greene could compliment him with a more bruising style of run. He is freaking 5'11'' 235 lbs and runs a 4.5. If he goes in the 2nd I like another power back named Rashard Jennings of Liberty (I-AA) who actually runs faster.

4. Pat White (QB/WR/PR, West Virginia): I love this guy. He is the perfect gadget quarterback for Gailey and we could use him as a wideout as well. Think Randle El in Washington. By the way his nickname is "The Chief!"

4. Mike Holzclaw (MLB, E Michigan): Sleeper inside linebacker that would give us an insurance policy if Vilma's injury bug pops up again. By the way this is the LJ trade pick.

5. Kraig Urbik (RG/RT, Wisconsin): I know I haven't addressed the offensive line hardley at all, but our team has much more pressing needs. I think Urbik is one of the most NFL ready lineman in this years draft. His knock is injury concerns, but he bounced back nicely this season. He might start opening day at RG.

6. Willie VanDeSteeg (DE, Minnesota): Had 8 sacks this season. A good pass rusher with decent size. Has some of those "off the field issues though".

6.Wopamo Osaisai (CB, Stanford): Isn't an interception machine, but broke up 8 passes and had 45 tackles. We need depth at corner even if we get that vet dimeback off waivers. This is the 2nd pick we got for the Bennett trade to Tampa last year.

7. Brooks Foster (WR, North Carolina): An underachiever who is 6'3" 205 lbs and runs a 4.4. Perfect 7th round pick. Not to mention he wasn't his QB's first option in that Hakeem Nicks, his teammate, is one of the best receivers in the country.

Finishing Touches and Thoughts

Last, I would move Waters from LG to C. I would like the LG spot to be filled by H Taylor and revert Niswanger to his old role as an interior back-up. I would like to retain Carnahan too because if Taylor gets hurt I want another tackle for insurance. The RG spot can be between W Smith and Urbik and I think McIntosh warrented his job back toward the end of the year, unless Richardson discovers himself. Plus, he is only two years into his contract. If the offensive line is still underwhelming it can be at the top of the list of priorities in 2010. I'm a little worried if our only QB taken is White as well. I hope we can trade down so that we can get Freeman from Kansas State. Maybe we should just take Freeman instead of the NT Raji and keep R Edwards. The other option would be bringing in a vet. Maybe Losman from the Bills? I don't know if this team is a contender in 2009, but I really like our chance in 2010. (schedule is easier too). I honestly think this is the best way to move our team forward, but if you disagree please give me some feedback.

Offseason Goal: Buy Some Linebackers

chiefsfan1384 — Sun, 14 Dec 2008 12:27:42 -0000

I don't think I have to tell all of you that the main reason we have two wins is due to the state of our front seven. I've been thinking a lot about this lately because my biggest fear is that our best options will dry up. Meaning, the free agents that we want are going to be resigned or on draft day all of our targeted players will be taken before we can get to them. However, I think our great need at Will and Mike linebackers can be solved through free agency. We can still draft some, but the only first year impact players would be the top tier guys who are not going to make it out of the first round being: Maualuga, Laurinautis, Curry, Cushing and Spikes. I would love to have these guys, but realisticly the only one worth drafting in the top five would be Maualuga. And even that might be too high for a mike linebacker. I feel that we should build our linebackers through free agency for this reason and the fact that veterns are more warranted right now. We could then use our first on a DE like Orakpo because the only other option would be Suggs from Baltimore. I like Suggs, but they run an entirely different operation in Baltimore and I don't know if would fit what we need. (also I've heard that he can be a problem in the locker room) I think we should go after these guys in free agency:

1. Karlos Dansby(WLB) - A likely candidate that will not be signed to an extension. The Cardinals are waist deep in cap trouble. Dansby was franchised prior to last season, which got him 8M this year. I personally don't think the Cards can afford to keep him on. He's going to be extremely expensive, probably in the 6 year 36-40 million range. However, he would bring the leadership we are lacking on defense. So far this year he has 94 tackles, 2 INT, 3 sacks and a FF. He brings the speed that we need for both zone coverage and the ability to rush the passer. Our weakside would be filled instantly and D Williams could back him up giving us depth.

2. Jonathan Vilma(MLB) - The Saints are not going to sign Vilma to an extension. If they do they have to give up their third round picks for the NYJ's 4th. They have already given up a 2nd for Shockey. This was reported by Adam Shaffer of the NFL Network. Vilma was a machine when he came out of college. He was drafted by coach Edwards in the 1st round in 2004. He was traded to New Orleans because he had injury concerns in 2007 and did not adapt well to the 3-4 defense Mangeni implemented. With our cap space we should be able to afford him and Dansby and he might want to be reunited with Edwards. This year he has 111 tackles, 1 INT, 2 FF and a sack. He would also bring the vetern presence to the position that we need to be able to call out audiables and what not. I am also for drafting Holzclaw in the 4th round for a fail safe if Vilma's injury bug pops up again.

3. Sam Williams(OLB) - A reserve for the Oakland Raiders. He has only started 2 games this year, but he recorded an interception in one game. He would come reletively cheap and would give us a viable back-up to DJ at the strongside position. I also think we might keep Boiman around putting seven linebackers on the roster for next year. If we can get Holzclaw in round 4 (which I think is a real possibility), then our depth would be comforting come next year.
By the way all of these guys are still farily young with Karlos at 27, Vilma at 26 and Williams at 28. If you read this before the game today study the linebackers. Especially, their ability to cover Antonio Gates. Also, see if DJ is playing well at the Mike. I think he is better suited to play on the outside, but who knows.

A Realistic Future

chiefsfan1384 — Mon, 17 Nov 2008 08:47:18 -0000

If you guys want to know a really good mock draft sight go to walterfootball.com. A lot of you probably already know this sight. I get a lot of information from it and it ranks all of the players by their positions. I would think this is a very realistic scenario and it would fill all of our holes at RE, RT, RG, SLB, MLB, WR, CB and K. I'm putting quarterback on the back burner because of Thigpen's play and the utter lack of talent in this years draft. I'm still for drafting a QB, just not in any of the high rounds.

Sign

Dansby - Great, young, athletic OLB for the Cardinals. They might let him go because of their cap situation and they want to resign Warner.

Colombo - Big right tackle for the Cowboys. Jerry Jones has been spending money like a mad man so I think this could be a possibility. He is 29 years old.

Nugent - Kicker for the Jets. He has been injured this year, but when he was healthy he was probably one of the better kickers in the league. Edwards drafted him in the 2nd round back in NY. Even if Barth is fairly accurate we can't afford to keep him on because of his kick offs, which are killing us in field position.

Draft

1. Orakpo (Texas, DE) - Probably not the BPA if we are drafting top 3. However, I don't think it would be a huge reach by any means. This guy is a freak of nature physically and he is an all around good DE. His production is pretty good this season especially when you take into account that he is playing in the Big 12.

2. Spikes (Florida, MLB) - If you watched the South Carolina game you saw Brandon pick off two passes, one for a score. This guy is a prototype cover two LB. I'm worried Detroit might try and snag him before we do. I'd be tempted to trade up, Millen isn't in Detroit anymore so they might notice this kid's talent and they have a need at MLB as well.

3. D Williams (Penn St., WR) - He is going into the third because his numbers are not exactly off the charts. However, this guy is one of the more explosive WR in college football. We can use him in the slot, for end arounds and punt returns.

4. Canfield (Cincinnati, RG) - I saw this guy play against Louisville the other night and he was dominating. He is 310 lbs and runs a 5.10, which is pretty quick for a guard. The knock on him is off the field issues. By the way I think we might have to trade back into the 3rd to get him. (5th round pick and 2010 2nd round pick)

5. Word-Daniels (Georgia Tech, CB) - A cover two corner that will give us much needed depth.

6. Capers (West Virginia, OT) - An athletic tackle that will give us depth. I want to move Taylor to LG and Waters to C so this is an insurance policy. Taylor will still be the primary back-up to Albert on the depth chart.

7. John Parker Wilson (Alabama, QB) - Not exactly the sexiest QB, but he manages games well. I know what your thinking; not another Alabama QB!!! He doesn't have injury issues so far though and if he leads Alabama to a NC then he has my respect. By the way this pick is in the 6th round. I think this is the other pick we got for Bennett. The 2010 class is going to be sick so don't dwell on the fact that we didn't draft a QB high.

8. McCain (Utah, CB) - He is a little on the short side, 5'9". However, the kid runs a 4.33. I say what the hell, it's the 7th round. Can return kicks too.

Cut (my favorite part)

McIntosh, D Edwards (retire), Barth, Babin, Colclough, Maclin, Jones, Webb, Carnahan, Huard and Thomas. I think we should bring Croyle back to camp and he can compete for a roster spot with Gray and Wilson. Also, I think we should resign Niswanger, Page and McGraw.