[Note by JasonB, 04/06/11 5:00 PM EDT ] Promoted from fanshots. Awesome work from no1pipelayer here

I'll admit that, when it comes to drafting, I'm more of a Quality over Quantity guy.  I prefer when the Eagles target a player of supposed high value and trade up to get him or pick one of the more highly rated prospects at their original pick.  On the other side of the coin it drives me nuts when the Eagles trade down in the draft to pick up extra  5th or 6th round picks.  So I decided to dissect the draft pick trades to find out how successful trading up or down has been for the Eagles during the Andy Reid era.

After the Jump let the dissecting and conclusions begin.

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     Well another magazine has come out with another article filled with the same old cliche stories of how terrible the Philadelphia fans are.  Again, like a rite of spring, we are regaled with tales of vomit, Santa, and snowballs.  Almost as predictable are the cries of protest from my fellow Eagles fans.  "Why do the fans of other teams get a pass for things that get magnified by the national media in Philadelphia?", I hear them ask.  Well I'm here to tell you that it will never stop.  It will never stop because one, it's an easy article to write and two, the article will no doubt be linked to many times and garner thousands of page views.  Maybe it's time we give up and embrace our bad reputation rather than whine about how lazy and misinformed the author of the story is.  I really don't see the advantages to being like Sisyphus and rolling that boulder up the hill only to see it roll back down every time a magazine or blog decides to regurgitate the story.  Actually, as someone who goes to an away game or two a year, I've seen the advantages of having a bad reputation.  You would be shocked at how many people will bring peace offerings of food and/or booze over to you in the parking lot in a effort to nip trouble in the bud.  Or how people will make way for you as you stroll around their stadium.  Consider also that every fan of another team who feels uncomfortable buying a ticket to see their team play the Eagles at the Linc is one more ticket available to an Eagles fan.  Like I said it's time to relish our reputation and stop worrying what the national press and the nattering nabobs of Internet negativity are spewing.

     Upon Reading the game treads on BBV the last two weeks and seeing the misery that the Giants performance on the field has caused my football fan brothers to the north, I decided to come up with a little betting game that can distract you when the Giants' performance is not up to par or to keep you interested while they are blowing out one of the NFL's weak sisters. 

     How it works is I will set an over/under number for how many times a certain subject matter or phrase is posted in the game thread and you guys can either pick against me or just count them up to see how close I come to the real number.

Over/Unders for the Washington game thread  1/2/2011

Posts with "Fire Tom Coughlin" in it

 This one really depends on how the team is doing.  I'm going to say it will be a close game with the Giants winning in the end

The Pick 54

Posts that complain about Tuck or Osi being in coverage

Depends on how badly the player is burnt or how anemic the pass rush is during these plays.

The Pick 19

Posts that tell us it's not Eli's Fault

Since Eli averages a little over two turnovers a game and he has a nice group of people here that have his back, I'll go a little high.

The Pick 32

Posts that have the phrases "Fire Quinn" or "Our special teams suck" in them

Now we're getting into some of the high number picks.

The Pick 140

Posts that complain about holding calls that the refs miss

This one is huge

The Pick 296

Posts where one Giants fan calls another a troll for making a negative comment

This one is getting more and more frequent

The Pick 23

Posts that begin "With all the talent on this team" but end with a negative comment

Starting to see this one here almost as often as on the Cowboys site.

The Pick 48

 

Good Luck picking.  If you enjoyed this game and the Giants somehow make it into the playoffs I would be happy to post some Over/Unders for that game.

I know that the talk the last two days has been about the perceived poor officiating in the Colts game.  But how can we ever expect to get the benefit of the doubt from the referees when we are quickly gaining the reputation of  a undisciplined team who commits a lot of penalties. Here is a list of the penalties and penalty yards from the first eight games:

14-125 vs Colts

10-100 vs Titans

9-78 vs Falcons

5-30 vs Niners

8-80 vs Skins

7-84 vs Jags

9-75 vs Lions

10-80 vs Packers

     I understand that we have a young team and that with youth you're going to get a certain amount of undisciplined play and along with that come the penalties.  What I find disturbing is that as the season goes on the problem seems to be getting worse.  Penalties played a large role in all three of the Eagles losses and made many of their wins closer than they needed to be.

     I know we have discussed ad nauseum the Trent Cole and Coleman penalties but what I have not seen mentioned were the two false starts that immediately followed two time outs by the Eagles offense.  I think I was as incensed about those two penalties as I was about anything else that happened in that game.  Aren't time outs there for you to strategize and get everyone on the same page?  How does this happen?

     I don't know what the answers are to this problem but Reid had better get a handle on it quickly before it robs us of the potential of an excellent season.

  Me and a group of guys went down to Nashville for the Eagles game.  Great city to visit with excellent food, especially the BBQ.  Even for a guy like me who doesn't necessarily like country music the honky tonks and bars were a blast.  The people were extremely friendly and they had something I'd never seen before; an erotic haunted house.  Some pics from the game and around the stadium after the jump.

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Early in the game Kolb looked like a

Clay Mathews played like a

 

And made our o-line look like

And turned Kolb into

In the second Quarter the sideline looked less like a football team and more like a

At 10 penalties to 2 the referee's calls seemed

Vick came in the second half.  He made some good passes and ran like a

It didn't help the cause that Celek and Maclin had

But near the end of the game Vick looked like a

 

when he was closing in on the tying score but Andy Reid made a

call on 4th and 1 with a quarterback draw.

 

I think that covers it.

Peter Schrager wrote a good article on Fox Sports about the  Rules of wearing a jersey.  Some great stuff.  There are some great points made.  The points I agreed with after the Jump.

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     Many of the so called experts want to portray Kevin Kolb and his situation with the Eagles to the legion of young QBs who have been thrust into the starting role out of their teams necessity for some sort of quality at that position.  Many if not most of these young QBs struggled mightily.  I for one don't think the comparisons are as valid as the people in the national media would have you believe.  First of all most young QBs don't get to start for a team that has overall playoff quality talent at the other positions.  Secondly the vast majority of young QBs don't unseat established probowl QBs who are still producing as if at the top of their games.  Furthermore how often did a young QB inspire so much confidence that his team was comfortable trading away a top preforming QB.
     It certainly doesn't seem that Kolbs situation can be fairly compared to say David Carr's, Tim Couch's,  or even Peyton Manning's situations when they were put in starting roles.  Now I certainly didn't do as much research for this post as the artist formally known as Bye Dawk : ( would do for his typical post but I can, off the top of my head, think of a few examples of young QBs who took over the starting role for their respective teams that more closely resembles Kolb's situation.

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[Note by Ed Valentine: I pushed this to the front because it is a really interesting comparison. It is amazing how often the Eagles and Giants are in the market for players at the same positions, and fun to compare who they choose and how they get there. Different styles, but two of football's best-run franchises. ]

Posted this on BGN and thought I'd like to get assessments from both sides of the coin.

Judging a draft or trying to compare one teams drafting acumen against an others is inherently problematic.  Different teams have vastly different drafting philosophies. Teams value certain positions higher than other teams do.  Some teams run a 3-4 defense while others run the 4-3.The talent pool at positions can vary wildly from one years draft to another and from one round to another.  Lastly you have to factor in a little luck.  All these factors and others make it very difficult to compare one teams drafting verse an others and truly come up with an apples to apples comparison.

The Eagles and Giants have very different drafting styles. Andy Reid and the Eagles seem to target individual players and move aggressively up and down the draft board to get their man.  Jerry Reese and the Giants take a more passive approach sitting tight at their draft positions and and take the best player available on their draft board.  Where Reese is seen as an excellent evaluator of talent and an astute drafter Reid is seen to be a bit scattershot with his drafting.  Reid always seems to make large reaches on players(eg Matt McCoy and B. Smith) but on the other hand he has hit some spectacular home runs(eg Brian Westbrook and Desean jackson).  Reese on the other hand is a steady value drafter who always seems to get talent that was rated a round higher than where he drafts them.  One thing that it looks like the two teams can agree on is the value they place on certain positions on the football field.  Both love their linemen and place a very high value on the quarterback position.  Both teams also place a high value on their draft picks.  You never see either of these teams with less than seven picks in the draft.

Eagles and Giants fans find themselves in an almost unique position of being able to pull off an in kind comparison of their scouting departments and front offices where it pertains to drafting.  Over the last few years the teams have drafted the same position in the same draft and in the same round on four occasions.   I find it fascinating to compare these players with the little insight we have now and watch them in the future with hopes that these players will give us some idea of which team and which drafting style is truly better.  The players are as follows:

Brent Celek vs Kevin Boss
Boss was picked nine picks before Celek and started his career with a bang subbing for an injured Shocky and helping the Giants to a championship.  Celek may have started off a little more slowly but had a breakout season last year many thought was Pro Bowl worthy.  Although the jury is still out on this one if most people were given the choice I think most would chose Celek.

Nate Ilaoa vs Ahmad Bradshaw
We don't have to go too in depth on this one.  Ilaoa didn't even make it onto the final roster where Bradshaw has become a big contributor to the Giants running game.  Chalk one up for Reese on this one.

Jeremy Maclin vs Hakeem Nicks
This draft gives us a good comparison of styles.  Reid moved up in the draft to snatch Maclin and the Giants waited patiently as Nicks fell to them.  Both players had excellent rookie seasons and had comparable stats so it's way early to judge either as better than the other.  this is certainly one to watch in the future.

Brandon Graham vs JPP
Drafted two picks apart these two are going to be fun to watch.  Graham is a more polished player coming from a more respected program.  Paul is raw and and less experienced but comes into the league with an impressive set of physical tools.  Funny thing is that both were drafted before Derrick Morgan who was thought of as the best DE prospect in the draft.

     Judging a draft or trying to compare one teams drafting acumen against an others is inherently problematic.  Different teams have vastly different drafting philosophies.  Teams value certain positions higher than other teams do.  Some teams run a 3-4 defense while others run the 4-3.The talent pool at positions can vary wildly from one years draft to another and from one round to another.  Lastly you have to factor in a little luck.  All these factors and others make it very difficult to compare one teams drafting verse an others and truly come up with an apples to apples comparison.
     The Eagles and Giants have very different drafting styles.  Andy Reid and the Eagles seem to target individual players and move aggressively up and down the draft board to get their man.  Jerry Reese and the Giants take a more passive approach sitting tight at their draft positions and and take the best player available on their draft board.  Where Reese is seen as an excellent evaluator of talent and an astute drafter Reid is seen to be a bit scattershot with his drafting.  Reid always seems to make large reaches on players(eg Matt McCoy and B. Smith) but on the other hand he has hit some spectacular home runs(eg Brian Westbrook and Desean jackson).  Reese on the other hand is a steady value drafter who always seems to get talent that was rated a round higher than where he drafts them.  One thing that it looks like the two teams can agree on is the value they place on certain positions on the football field.  Both love their linemen and place a very high value on the quarterback position.  Both teams also place a high value on their draft picks.  You never see either of these teams with less than seven picks in the draft.
     Eagles and Giants fans find themselves in an almost unique position of being able to pull off an in kind comparison of their scouting departments and front offices where it pertains to drafting.  Over the last few years the teams have drafted the same position in the same draft and in the same round on four occasions.   I find it fascinating to compare these players with the little insight we have now and watch them in the future with hopes that these players will give us some idea of which team and which drafting style is truly better.  The players are as follows:

Brent Celek vs Kevin Boss
Boss was picked nine picks before Celek and started his career with a bang subbing for an injured Shocky and helping the Giants to a championship.  Celek may have started off a little more slowly but had a breakout season last year many thought was Pro Bowl worthy.  Although the jury is still out on this one if most people were given the choice I think most would chose Celek.

Nate Ilaoa vs Ahmad Bradshaw
We don't have to go too in depth on this one.  Ilaoa didn't even make it onto the final roster where Bradshaw has become a big contributor to the Giants running game.  Chalk one up for Reese on this one.

Jeremy Maclin vs Hakeem Nicks
This draft gives us a good comparison of styles.  Reid moved up in the draft to snatch Maclin and the Giants waited patiently as Nicks fell to them.  Both players had excellent rookie seasons and had comparable stats so it's way early to judge either as better than the other.  this is certainly one to watch in the future.

Brandon Graham vs JPP
Drafted two picks apart these two are going to be fun to watch.  Graham is a more polished player coming from a more respected program.  Paul is raw and and less experienced but comes into the league with an impressive set of physical tools.  Funny thing is that both were drafted before Derick Morgan who was thought of as the best DE prospect in the draft.

 

Update:  I also posted this on the Giants site.  Anyone interested on seeing a giants fans perspective on this post can find it here http://www.bigblueview.com/2010/5/2/1454455/apples-to-apples

No it's not what you think.  I don't want the Eagles to draft a QB that high in draft.  I think that the Eagles are in a great position at 37, if McCoy and/or Tebow are still on the board to have a highest bidder wins auction for that pick.  The four teams that pick immediately before 37 will presumably be set at QB for years to come.  The Rams will be set with Sam Bradford.  Detroit, Tampa and KC are all set at QB.  Now the teams that draft immediately after 37 are a different story.  Out of the four picks that follow the Eagles pick at 37 three are held by teams that are in dire need of a QB.  Cleveland at 38, Oakland at 39, and Buffalo at 41.  Go a little lower and you'll find a few more teams who could use a QB Denver, Carolina, and San Fran.  The way I see it that puts us in the catbird seat.  I wonder what Holmgren  would give to ensure that he gets McCoy, a player that it's said he covets.  Would you take a pick this year and Jacksonville's first next year to give them the opportunity to draft Tebow.  The possibilities are endless and for every QB taken a CB or Safety is dropping.

via z.about.com

     In the last half of the last decade the Eagles decided that they were going to completely upgrade the defensive tackle position.  During the four drafts from 2005 to 2008 the Eagles used the first pick that they possessed three times on DTs(Laws in 2008, Bunkley in 2006, and Patterson in 2005).  It seems that the Eagles had decided to have one of the best set of DTs in the league or die trying.
     Every time I read what beasts Mike Patterson and Brodrick Bunkley are on this site and elsewhere, I have to admit, I roll my eyes a little.  Now I'll be the first to admitt that both players are stout against the run, not spectacular but stout, but I see them as average at best as pass rushing tackles.  No, I take that back, below average.  Guys like Paul Grasmanis and Brandon Whiting were average and were able to get a combined 10 sacks in this same defense back in 2002 or Sam Rayburn who had 6 sacks in 2004.  The Williams Wall in Minnesota(Pat Williams and Kevin Williams) are renown for being stellar defenders against the run were somehow able to combine for 6 sacks in 2006, 6 sacks in 2007, 9.5 sacks in 2008, and 8 sacks in 2009.  How many sacks did Bunkley and Patterson combine for in 2009 ?  The answer is 2.5.  I don't know about you but I find that as unexceptable for two highly touted and drafted players.
     Now I've heard the argument, on may occasions, that the Eagles DTs are not asked to provide pass rush.  That they play a two gap system which requires the DTs to stay at home and wait to see what gap the running back is going to use and attack that gap thus slowing down any chance of creating any pass rush.  My questions with this are many.  One if Bunkley and Patterson are such beasts why do they get rotated out on almost every obvious passing down and still create little pass rush in the others?  Two how were other far less touted DTs able to create a pass rush in the same defensive system?  Three how, when you are sacrificing these two "beasts" to the run, were the Cowboys able to get 179 and 198 yards rushing agaist the Eagles in consecutive weeks last year?  Why did the Eagles chose to use there first pick in 2007 on Trevor Laws, a player we were told would be a disruptive pass ruher from the tackle position?
     I've also heard the argument that Patterson and Bunkley have vastly inferior talent playing behind them then past Eagles DTs.  Granted having a player like Trotter backing you up in run defense at linebacker can be liberating but remember, if you can, the Eagles also started players by the names of Mark Simoneau and Levon Kirkland at Middle Linebacker.  The Eagles were able to generate 19 sacks from the defensive tackle position in 2003 with starting LBs by the name of Mark Simoneau, Nate Wayne, and Carlos Emmons.  Emmons was good but the other two were dreck.  In 2002 the Eagles got 19.5 sacks from the tackles with Emmons,  Shawn Barber, and Levon Kirkland starting at linebacker.  Not a god awful linebacker crew not great either.  Do you really think I'm out of line to expect more from our defensive tackles than the 3.5 sacks they generated in 2009 or the 4.5 they got in 2008( 2 of those from Klecko)?
      Lets say that sack numbers can be deceptive, even the best DT the Eagles ever had Jerome Brown only had 1 sack in 1990.  The differance was that Brown was a disruptive force in both pass and rush defense.  He was consistantly in the offensive backfield and was a part of all those sacks that Reggie White and Clyde Simmons were able to get by collapsing the passing pocket from the inside.  We don't see the same thing today.  All of Bunkley and Patterson's plays happen at the line of scrimage and rarely do the opposing quarterbacks have to worry about the pocket collapsing without the blitz.
     I don't think I or other Eagles fans should be suprised or disappointed if the Eagles use their first pick in the upcoming draft on a player like Brian Price or Jared Odrick.  I think we've lived long without a good inside pass rush.