Uncle lights had a few posts and responses to aging stars who joined the Birds. I believe there are two categories in this discussion. First, those who may not have been at their prime but played well albeit short stints for the Cardinals. Second, those who failed to even come close to their former glory days and their Cardinal tenure is hard to even remember. I know I won’t hit them All but I will focus on one of each.

Will “the Thrill” Clark

He was hardly the player he used to be in his Giant days, but when he joined the cards for 51 games in 99 he played very well. Just a peak at his 51 games shows a 345 avg and 42 runs batted in with 12 home runs. Stats aside, he quickly became a beloved Cardinal and many including myself thought he could have played another year even though he opted for retirement. I would have loved to see a Big Mac/Clark platoon.

Fernando Valenzuela

Well past his “el toro” days in Dodger Blue the cards took a forgettable flyer on him in 97. So forgettable I forgot about it until Uncle lights reminded me. I was finishing high school and now remember his shellings and my friend who often referred to Fernando as the guy who started out a pitcher and ended up a bus. His weight had ballooned and his pitching would sometimes show flashes but there is no escaping his 5 plus era, four losses in 5 career cardinal starts. Worth noting the picture on his wiki page looks like a elder Hispanic Jerry Lewis.

I thought this was worth discussion given the current Beltran, Berkman, talk and their not prime years. I believe that the discussion should remain those who made it in a gamble and those who did not. This is just a starter, I’m sure there are names I’m not even aware of.

Whenever I go to a baseball game with one of my friends, (which will be a lot harder now that I live in Or. And he lives in IL) we discuss music. Specifically what music would you walk up to, great HR music, and entering from the bullpen music.

This is not really a new topic, I have been coming to VEB since 06 and it has come up many times. I thought that given the topics and threads the last few days maybe we needed a light hearted discussion.

My questions are three fold

1. What would your batting music be?

2. If you were a reliever what would you run into

3. Name your favorite Cardinal player music, or ball park music you enjoyed.

My batting music would be a difficult choice, something peppy maybe seldom used to get the crowd into it. I am not sure other players pay attention to it per say so not sure intimidating music is important. Eye of the Tiger or just the Rocky Theme would be my batting choice.

Now if I were coming in from the pen, I'd like to hear Shake it up by the cars. I'm not quite sure why, but I always thought it would be a good run in tune.

My favorite cards tunes were when Walker had Crazy Train played and Big Mac Welcome to the Jungle. During the chase nothing got me more excited than Big Mac batting as Axel screeched. Sometimes I would be disappointed by the result, but the moments leading up to it were great.

I also wanted to mention when I lived in Texas when a Ranger would HR they would play the theme from The Natural as fireworks blasted, always thought that was a neat thing that made the trot, their own.

Have fun with this, there is no wrong answer

I cruise the boards and have since 05 I think. I enjoy coming here since most eat and breathe Cardinal baseball, even on off days. What I wanted to have fun with was taking a look back. Most on here it seems just expect the teams to win. On one hand we complain about how awful guys are, yet expect them to play better. I perhaps think its just that we have gotten used to the Cardinals being up towards the top since the late 90s. I'm not defending Mo or management or anything else, just taking a break from all that.

Many of us here can look back at the days when they were just flat terrible. A lot of the new guys are too young to remember that, I'm not even that old. For me players came to mind. I remember how awful the team was, but I loved them anyway.

So I looked up a player Felix Jose  and then a yr he was with the BOB.

I give you the 1990 St. Louis Cardinals.

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/teamstats/roster.php?y=1990&t=SLN

Look at the Guys who surround the Wizard...You know whats weird? the guys I remember the most outside of Ozzie are the Hurdler's Pena's and Thompson's. Nothing was quite like watching the cubs hearing them butcher Geronimo, cause in those days(man I sound old) it was WGN, no cable or only the elite had it.

I wont go much further than this, but its a look back at a really bad team, but I loved them anyway and still rooted. I just think we forget, since we haven't had a bad team like this in a few yrs.

Not that we expect bad baseball, we don't but i thought maybe we could remeber a bad team and some of my fan favs and say hey this teams not that bad...well then theres the talent thing..bad years etc.. anyway

Now cruising through the posts there is often a "this is the worst stat" line someone might say. For instance some debate goes into the Quality start stat, or the Win loss stat for pitchers, which was mentioned after Loshe's last start. One that I hear in every game I watch is so and so VS a team.

On one hand a team regardless of the pitcher might have a certain approach to hitters regardless of year as long as the coaching staff stays the same.

On the other hand how is it you can say for example Ludwick hits Braves pitchers well historically? Ok he might have, but when the whole rotation might change does it matter? I'm not talking about playing well at stadiums cause I agree with that. It's more about how they hit against a team. Or maybe they say a pitcher Joe Blanton for example has always pitched well against a team through a career..Not a few starts but years as was mentioned in his last start. The same argument applies, that the Cardinals have changed many players since Blanton was an A, and even since he has come to Philly. Again this discussion is more about team than 1 on 1. We all know there are certain pitchers who don't fare well over time against certain guys...ie. Perez and AP

Just something I have noticed watching baseball that I think can be completly irrelevant, but maybe I'm wrong.

Ok so I have seen a lot in the threads comments on announcers. We all loathe Morgan, and after yesterdays three games Mcarver was topping him. Tim kept digging at Big Mac, for not teaching bunting, not being able as a power hitting rightie to teach a contact hitting leftie(which lead to an even more absurd theory), and I'm sure there was more. Recently after Penny pitched he said when he was taken out he went to the clubhouse for a moment or so and was like " I don't know who calls games but he makes everything seem like a homer "way back" which lead to his worry.

So my question is then who? If you could pick a tandem to do a game living or not who would it be.

My list starts with

Jack, Vin Scully,

and just for fun I like to listen to Santo and the Uke..nto because they call great games but they are entertaining. Uker is entertaining by having humor. Liek years ago Cards had a reliver named Jeff Tabaka, and when he made an appereance Uker did an impromptu fake Tabbaco message that second hand smoke kills...Santo I like cause he's liek one of us calling a game. clouded judgment for his team, and deep dispair when something bad happens especially with overpriced left fielders.

So I'm watching Sportscenter and they run a ad for Mets Cards and they say see two of the games greatest hitters. Now I didn't catch all of the commerial but that part was referring to Wright and Ap. So it got me wondering, I mean at first I was like David Wright, I know we all know the man Crush the WWL has on the guy and has for years and he's good but I thought there would be other players that were better(and I realize they need a tv spot for a game)...But Who

So what I did was just went on AVG, and knwoing hitting is also some other stats just started at Avg of Active players. Now obviously he doesn't have the AB's of other guys but I was surprised to see whose above him. So what do you think, and Who would you choose to deem "some of the games greatest hitters". Remember we are choosing guys other than Albert...

http://mlb.mlb.com/stats/historical/player_stats.jsp?statType=1&timeFrame=3&timeSubFrame2=1&sortByStat=AVG&baseballScope=mlb&timeSubFrame=1

So I was with yer dog first an avid poster on Veb at the Stros Cubbies paint drying 13 inning drama at minutemaid park. It was a fun as we took my daughter to her first(rememberable game 9 months first one) game and got autographs. It was Roy Oswalt bobblehead doll day, which on his it says Roy Oswalt "The wizzard". Yer dog and I have discussed that Oswalt has had this nickname by houstoninas for a bit. Is it maybe that Ozzies was the wizzard of Oz as a full nickname however often shortened to the wizard?

One problem. The nickname is taken. As a Card fan I'm angry, but as we discussed more as a fan it seems a rule has been broken? When given nicknames there are usually no repeats..here are some off the head nicknames that are famous, and stand for one person.

-  The Admiral

- The Great Bambino

- El Hombre

- The Glove

- Sweetness

- Human Highlight reel

- "the man"

Now keep in mind I'm not naive I know nicknames like "gibby" can apply more than once (both to guys named gibson though) My point is more the unique ones, and keep it to sports. If I'm missing famous repeats let me know.

On the way to work today at 4 am and thought of Hal Mcrae. Through his tenure as the hitting coach there have been some horendous slumps. I was trying to think if I have noticed whole teams going thorugh droughts the way they have. It has not been just this season. They started the season fine, then there were some injuries to big guns, and the rooks. Those are all factors, but again this is not the first time they have done this.

I'm not calling for anything specific, but at what point do you evaluate. How is a Hitting/pitching coach evaluated. With the ups and downs of a team, and a individuals it is just curious to me. The other thing I wonder is that you often hear of birds getting help on hitting from guys like Walker, or Big Mac and I have heard Hal too.

I'm glad Im not Mo to me it would be difficult to evaluate something like a hitting coach. If the team hits it could be cause of him, if they don't it doesn't nec. mean it's Hals fault either.

Thoughts?

So this may nto be fanpost worthy but as I was sitting eating my 3 appetizers for $11 at Applebees and Shake it up came on I thought about this subject some more. whenever I'm at a game I always wonder what would I come up to AB with, or run in from the pen?

This has been talked about some during threads over the yrs since I been coming to VEB, but I thought it was a good off season(kinda) topic.

I already mentioned shake it up by the Cars for a Reliever. Maybe not his entrance but something the stadium plays. As for AB I might go with something silly Liek the BGs or maybe Jump around to get the crowd into it by HOP.

So two things what would you run in from the pen to, and Which players music during his AB did you like the most?

I have two. Welcome to the Jungle for Big Mac, and Crazy Train when Walker hit. I have to say though When Big mac batted and Axel warmed up of the system it was such a great feeling in the air.

I attended a leadership training deal in February this year and one lesson is brought up to mind when thinking of the 08 cards. If and just. We were told not to think in theses terms so to speak. It’s almost like you are waiting for something to happen instead of making it happen.

We hear a lot of things like..If they just had that bat, or if they had a starting pitcher or if they’d just get a solid relief guy. It seems there are too many if’s and justs to fix this team with one trade or in one year.

I have been happy with the team, as none of us expected them to do this well, and you don’t want to dismantle the farm for rentals. However is it more tragic for them to play so well, management to do nothing and see them play the way they are playing right now for the rest of the year? It’s almost like you need an in-between move that says this guy may help us this year but will definitely help in 09 and doesn’t burn the farm. Who would that be? Not sure if any of the current names fill that. I don’t like the script I feel that is being written and am not too excited about the next few months, but only time will tell.

One thing is for certain I’m glad I’m not MO.

Not sure it could happen again or who for but I think this team needs a Larry Walker trade. The trade that Walt pulled off in late 04 that said to the team "we believe". I'm not sure that this teams is as good as 04. But I think that if they were able to do a move this team is dare I say "gritty" enough to win...maybe not it all but maybe the division.

I like this years team as they are not flashy, have had tons of injuries, and yet still win. The other thing about the Walker trade that made it so great is it just kinda happened. He wasn't to my knowledge a name being shopped and then bam the Cards had him. There are tons a names floating this year C.C,Holliday,Maddux, etc. Who could be this years under the radar guy? Maybe an under performing Giles?

I might be dreaming, but who could you see the cards getting whether it be bullpen help, or a bat, what would it do to chemistry could it help or hurt? My thought is go get a starter cause I'm not sure this group can hold it together all yr. What do you think

Didn't see this posted, but it was on 175 The Wilson show? They were talking baout the Cards and Strauss predicted a fall to earth because of all the cards good stats in OBP, Era, etc they are like 8th in runs scored. He said it has been mentioned to get a bat which we all know, but is hard cause most bats don't come available until late next month. The host asked who and he said maybe Young from Texas which he called doubtful.

I lived East of Dalls for a few yrs and watched this guy come up he moved around their infield and you never heard any gripe of him changing positions etc, plus IMO won the allstar game a few times for the AL. He does nto get alot of press cause he plays for the rangers...I doubt they would do it cause of Kennedy, but would love to see it

Didn't have time but yetsetrday on the Mike T. show Gammons was on doing team reviews etc. He said in spring that he watched the birds 2-3 times and said this is a very very poor team...In the first few weeks he said he's changed his mind. They still arent going to win the Central(in is opinion) but are much better than he thought, and would be the first to admit he was wrong. St louis is one of the few "pure" baseball towns in america. Great place to play.

Said Duncan makes pitchers "believe" and would never tell him his pitchers are bad because Duncan would give him his mind and has before.

There are a few good stories this year. Hamilton and Ankiel. Noone in the history of the game has attempted to do what he has done.

Said that Ankiel brings inspiration to the team that the others want to do it for him. His is a "phenomanal" person and th eball club loves him.

It was a great 2-3 min blurp all giving the team some love...

If I'm guessing right most people agree they should part ways with both. Not many people liked the C.Iz signing and his spring hasn't helped.

If memory serves last year Kennedy wasn't too hot(in S.T.) and they stuck it out with him as well.

We all know there are a ton of other options at 2b,Even before you explore outside options(see belly thread)
but what about SS.  I haven't heard how Ryan has done in S.T. I don't see a deal where they could part with both.

If you cut A.K. youd have to play miles,ryan or hauff. Also haven't heard how Hauff is doing this spring, if he's unproven this seems unlikely. If you cut IZ2 then miles and ryan?

They could cut both keep ryan and miles for ss? and perhaps get belly?

They probably ride it out

per mlb...The Nationals are dealing with a surplus at second base, and Rosenthal believes that Ron Belliard is the most logical piece to move, what with his $1.6MM salary this season, and his $1.9MM for next.  Rosenthal pinpoints the Rockies (perhaps too little range on the right side with Jeff Baker and Todd Helton), Cardinals, Twins, and White Sox as potential trade partners

I for one don't see it happening with Kennedy and Miles (although miles plays SS alot) it happening. I liked belly and will always remeber that play in S.D. he made. Thought for the money he would have been a good sign and thus far Kennedy has been a bust he started on like a 1.mil minor league deal last yr...

a minor league deal with Tx. Many wanted a gamble by the cards. Here are the remaining guys...Barry Bonds, Reggie Sanders, Shannon Stewart, Kenny Lofton, Corey Patterson, Shawn Green, and Trot Nixon..

I doubt they will go after any, and none liked my patterson idea, so what about either offering minor league offers to any of those(which a few of those guys might laugh)or maybe wait til ST is complete and see how the youn guys do. Then if a need is pressing and one of those guys is unsigned grab em.

I hope I'm ok posting this here. In light of the mitchell report they had Tim K and Peter G on Espnnews late last night. They both said at the end of the piece that both men were still geting their votes..

Ok their numbers even though Rocket is a different position are better than Big Macs who IMO retired when he wasn't fully recovered and could have played another season had he recovered...

The Mithcell report neither put more blame on Mac or cleared him. What surprises me is that with the same amount of speculation about Clemens the media is like lets wait and see but Canseco makes claims abotu Big mac and his bad senate stuff and well lets not vote him in..

Found it a bit hypocritical,maybe his numbers dont even get him in but i found the whole thing sad.