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Comment 1 reply, 1 rec
Homers in grade school and even high school at least where I played were rare events
I either played on Creve Coeur or Ballwin squads, and it seemed like invariably we, as the young kids, would always somehow be assigned to the American Legion fields that had fence distances that rivalled old Busch. There were some places that had shorter fences, but I never seemed to play there. Just about every home run I ever saw was an inside-the-park job, and I think I can count on one hand how many balls I actually saw go over the fence.
My high school field had no fence. If I had played more games on a normal-sized field, I’m sure I would have had several, but as it stands, I went down as never having hit one over. Several one-hops and ones the hit the lower part of the fence, but I just couldn’t finish the job.
Comment 1 reply, 1 rec
Comment 2 replies, 6 recs
Here's my little league (in St. Louis it was Khoury League) story
I think I was 9 or 10. Back in those days, they had different levels of squads, and mine at that time was at the most competitive for that age. We were playing a game against a low-level team and playing like crap. We were ahead by one or two runs I think. They were 7-inning games, but there was also a time limit, that I think I knew was there, but had never seen enforced. Maybe 1.5 hours, maybe two.
It’s late in the game, we were in the field, and the other team had runners on base. All of a sudden, the umpire says "That’s time, game’s over." The other side’s manager races out of the dugout and screams "Bullshit!! Bullshit!!!" We won, but I’m convinced that had the game played out, they would have come back and beat us. It stands out because, although I had heard curse words before, I had never seen that kind of live tirade.
It is amazing how we remember stuff like that that happened over 30 years ago. A couple of other memories:
*Getting the game-winning RBI to win a tournament on a Sac Fly that was a pop-up to the 2nd baseman on the edge of the outfield grass.
*Losing a game on a walkoff hit, when we were trying to intentionally walk the other side’s best hitter. I was the catcher. For some reason, the coach didn’t think that I was permitted to stand up and do the old school intentional walk thing by standing up and drifting out of the catcher’s box to receive the pitch. So he called a visit to the mound and told me to just set up my mitt about a foot outside. The pitcher hit my target area, but the other kid literally stepped way to his right, chased the pitch and slammed a line drive into the gap.
*A double-elimination tournament which we won when I was about 8 or 9. We had lost the first game, so we were in the loser’s bracket, but we came back and then had to beat the winner of the winner’s bracket twice in a doubleheader to win the tournament. I was a power-hitting catcher, and we had to play 3 games that day (21 innings), and I caught every inning, throwing out 4 runners trying to steal and we ended up winning.
Those truly were the days—I remember those more fondly than high school.
Comment 3 replies
What's your take on this question
Suppose whoever it was didn’t hear the call. Isn’t that also why the 3rd base umpire raised his hand in the air and kept it there? If you look at the replay, he still had his hand raised in the air when DeJong threw the ball to 2nd base.
Is that raised hand designed to signify an infield fly to the other umpires? I can’t imagine any other reason for the move, but I don’t know how they’re trained. If it did, there’s plenty of time for the 2nd base umpire to notice that before any messed up play at 2nd base.
The reason for the question is I don’t understand how the "not hearing" absolves anyone, whether the players or the other umpires.
Comment 1 reply, 8 recs
I really found this article interesting
If for nothing else, for the way the analysis was set up. I think the way you framed the issue about BABIP can be used as a model to analyze any hitter—did he deserve it and will it continue. Although some may find it obvious, the article serves as a reminder and reinforces the point that while it is possible to analyze players in a vacuum, it’s often more important to analyze a player compared to available options/replacement on the roster.
As for the trading of DeJong, I agree with HJ that it’s not a real priority. I don’t think the Cards are going to spend for the Correa types anyway, and if the club did make a splash, I would like some starting pitching please. DeJong and Sosa tug at me for different reasons. It’s hard not to like DeJong’s power potential, but I also have a bad attitude about the super low OBP, streaky type guys that we’ve had a lot of over the last 5 or 6 years. Sosa’s by far the superior defender, but with the shifts, better positioning, the move towards a "Three True Outcomes" game, and the research that shows that players don’t hit the ball on the ground as much, have devalued infield defense as time has gone on. Not made it irrelevant, but not as critical as it might have been.
In many ways, it’s a close call. Sosa has always had relatively high BABIPs at every stop, and his speed has something to do with it. I like his speed and baserunning, but he doesn’t walk at all, and I’m not sure we can expect him to keep getting hit at this clip. Sosa’s my starter right now. I don’t see the need right now to clear either one of them out. Either one has value in a bench role for different purposes.
Comment 2 recs
I think the players are entitled to rely on the umpire's calls
In the situations you cited, assuming they were called out, but a review showed they were safe, I don’t think they would be ruled out on the independent basis that they stepped off the base and were purportedly tagged out again.
I honestly haven’t ever seen that situation come up, but I would be shocked to learn that a player was called out, a replay showed he was safe, but he was ruled out anyway for leaving the base upon the umpire’s call.
If you have any examples of that happening, I would love to learn about them.
Comment 2 replies
Here's the problem
In order to conclude you’re right, you would have to believe that Ortega, not having been called out, would have been tagged in time by Edman anyway. The ultimate problem with your position is that once he had been called out, which happened as his back foot hit the base, there is no good reason for Ortega to go back to the base. He would have been justified in walking all the way back to the dugout.
Yes he overran the base a bit, but I don’t think there’s a reasonable basis to believe that he would have just lingered there had he not been called out. Suppose the 2nd base umpire had signaled safe instead of out or done nothing. Do you really believe that Ortega would have just stood there with his head in the clouds and allowed Edman to tag him?
Comment 1 reply
The 1970 World Series Elrod Hendricks/Bernie Carbo play!!!
Comment 2 replies, 6 recs
Yes all of this.
The reason why I feel that ultimately the Cardinals did not get hosed is for a couple of reasons.
One, if DeJong had just tagged Romine, it would have been a non-issue, and we wouldn’t be having this discussion. I don’t see a legit excuse why he wouldn’t have known the rule, and even if he didn’t hear the call (I don’t know why he wouldn’t), he could have observed the 3rd base umpire with his hand held straight up in the air. I’m not excusing the umpires not knowing what they’re doing or not hearing, but it’s on the players to not let the umpires affect the game if they can help it. I do agree that the 3rd base umpire should have immediately called "Infield Fly, if fair" because the ball was close enough to the line. But even if someone didn’t hear his late call, he still had his hand raised in the air, and it stayed in the air. and There’s no other cause for the umpire to make such a gesture if not to indicate an infield fly. Ultimately that’s why I think not hearing the call is a red herring.
Second, I firmly believe that the wrong out call at 2nd base was what allowed Edman to tag Ortega out. I get that he overran the base a bit, but the umpire was right in front of him and called him out as he was touching the base. I get that Ortega went off the base a bit, but had the umpire signaled safe or done nothing, there’s no reason to believe that Ortega would have just stood there with his thumb up his ass, knowing that Edman had the ball on the bag, unless he had been called out. Edman surely didn’t try to tag him in any timely manner before the out call when he had ample opportunity.
The issue is there’s no simple solution to please everyone here, but I honestly think that given how it went down, it was the most fair way to handle it. Romine was absolutely entitled to 3rd base. Ortega touched 2nd base and was called out, giving him no reason to try to get back to that base to avoid being tagged. Given that he most likely would have held 2nd base had he not been called out, I don’t see any basis to force him back to 1st base. As for calling time, the infield fly was the 2nd out, and the umpire’s out call at 2nd base was the 3rd out. There’s a decent argument that that fact made it not a live ball. Even if the latter argument doesn’t carry it, I don’t think there was a better way for them to rule at the end of the events.
Comment 1 reply
I'm actually working through the rulebook now
And I always defer to you on umpire situations, but I’m fairly certain they have to tag. If Arenado had caught the ball, either of those two runners could have doubled off their base. It’ll be laid out in the recap, but I would definitely like your thoughts.
Comment 9 recs
There will be a recap tonight after this Braves/Padres game
Will breakdowns on the play and the playoffs.
Comment 8 recs
The umpires botched it
Runners can advance at their own risk. Should have been the end of the game, as long as the runners were tagged.
Comment 1 reply, 2 recs
I have a vague memory of the Cards beginning in 1984
But the 1985 season is the earliest of my fully-formed memories. I turned 8 that summer. Some things that stand out.
*The 1985 and 1987 seasons. The Pond Scum Mets and games against that club in September of both years. Cesar Cedeno filling in for Jack Clark. Coleman and the Cards running everywhere. Ozzie and Clark’s homers in the 1985 NLCS. Remember jumping up and down. All the ailments in 1987. The 1987 NLCS when the Cards won 1-0 in Game 6, and Jose Oquendo hit a 3-run shot in Game 7. I literally jumped on my dad’s lap when he hit that.
*The 1996 season. Was a freshman at SLU and remember being excited for a new beginning for the club with ownership that actually seemed to like baseball. Grass on the infield and a new scoreboard. Eck with 3 straight saves in the NLDS. Dmitri Young’s triple and Brian Jordan’s homer in Game 4 to give us a 3-1 lead in the NLCS against the Braves.
*Getting McGwire and the 1998 home run chase. It was weird that it seemed that no one really paid attention to the rest of the club, but for better or worse, it brought baseball back on the map.
*The excitement of watching Pujols in his first year
*Lastly, the 2002 season stands out when the Cards overcame all the emotional adversity with the death of Darryl Kile and Jack Buck and a boatload of pitching injuries to make the NLCS.
Atlanta would have to lose too
And they don’t play until 3:10 central.